Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:28 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 3:45 pm Travis refers to the construction with what is called the dative external possessor, as in Ich wasche mir die Hände 'I wash my hands'. It would be weird to say Ich wasche mir meine Hände (but Ich wasche meine Hände is OK). But it would also be weird to say Ich wasche mir das Auto; you say Ich wasche mein Auto.

Ah, thank you, I hadn't thought of that. Not sure if the distinction there is purely between body parts and everything else. For instance, I might also say "Ich habe mir das T-Shirt eingesaut" "I got my t-shirt dirty/messed up".

Of course, the T-shirt is neither a body part nor an inalienable possession, but it is at least closer to the body than a car. And I feel as if this construction implies that I did so while wearing it (as opposed to getting it dirty by using it to mop up dirt, or anything like that).

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 2:31 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:28 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Thu Sep 19, 2024 3:45 pm Travis refers to the construction with what is called the dative external possessor, as in Ich wasche mir die Hände 'I wash my hands'. It would be weird to say Ich wasche mir meine Hände (but Ich wasche meine Hände is OK). But it would also be weird to say Ich wasche mir das Auto; you say Ich wasche mein Auto.

Ah, thank you, I hadn't thought of that. Not sure if the distinction there is purely between body parts and everything else. For instance, I might also say "Ich habe mir das T-Shirt eingesaut" "I got my t-shirt dirty/messed up".

Of course, the T-shirt is neither a body part nor an inalienable possession, but it is at least closer to the body than a car. And I feel as if this construction implies that I did so while wearing it (as opposed to getting it dirty by using it to mop up dirt, or anything like that).

Apparently clothing patterns with body parts this way in use cases like this.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 11:28 am This is just one "exotic" linguistic feature that occasionally shines up in this or that major European language. Another is ergatiity - just look at the English suffix -ee: an escapee is someone who escapes, but an employee is not someone who employs, rather someone who is employed. Ergativity in English!

That doesn't look like ergativity to me. Moreover, it doesn't mean 'one who escapes', but 'one who has escaped'. It's simply a case of the active/passive distinction being lost, which is also common with intransitive verbs. It's related to past passive participles being used without the sense 'past' or without the sense 'passive',

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:28 pm "Ich habe mir das T-Shirt eingesaut"

On a total unrelated note, is there any pattern for the gender of inanimate English loans in StG?

(Emphasis mine.)

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 8:54 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 11:28 am This is just one "exotic" linguistic feature that occasionally shines up in this or that major European language. Another is ergatiity - just look at the English suffix -ee: an escapee is someone who escapes, but an employee is not someone who employs, rather someone who is employed. Ergativity in English!

That doesn't look like ergativity to me. Moreover, it doesn't mean 'one who escapes', but 'one who has escaped'. It's simply a case of the active/passive distinction being lost, which is also common with intransitive verbs. It's related to past passive participles being used without the sense 'past' or without the sense 'passive',

Since it comes from the French past participle, it's not surprising that -ee normally has a passive meaning.

The use with agentives is intriguing but not really productive. Escapee, retiree, but not thinkee, walkee, votee, laughee, expandee, pausee, remainee, relentee, graduatee...

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 10:06 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 8:54 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 11:28 am This is just one "exotic" linguistic feature that occasionally shines up in this or that major European language. Another is ergatiity - just look at the English suffix -ee: an escapee is someone who escapes, but an employee is not someone who employs, rather someone who is employed. Ergativity in English!

That doesn't look like ergativity to me. Moreover, it doesn't mean 'one who escapes', but 'one who has escaped'. It's simply a case of the active/passive distinction being lost, which is also common with intransitive verbs. It's related to past passive participles being used without the sense 'past' or without the sense 'passive',

Since it comes from the French past participle, it's not surprising that -ee normally has a passive meaning.

The use with agentives is intriguing but not really productive. Escapee, retiree, but not thinkee, walkee, votee, laughee, expandee, pausee, remainee, relentee, graduatee...

"Thinkee" makes me think someone who is thought of.
"Walkee" makes me think of a dog.
"Votee" makes me think of a candidate.
"Laughee" makes me think of someone who is laughed at.
"Expandee" makes me think of someone who has been plied with psychoactive substances.
"Pausee" makes me think of someone who has been interrupted.
"Remainee" makes me think of someone who has been stuck somewhere by someone else's refusal to drive them.
"Relentee" makes me think of the object of someone's relenting.
"Graduatee" doesn't make me think of anything that could make any sense.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 10:03 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:28 pm "Ich habe mir das T-Shirt eingesaut"

On a total unrelated note, is there any pattern for the gender of inanimate English loans in StG?

(Emphasis mine.)

Not that I've noticed.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 10:03 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Sep 20, 2024 12:28 pm "Ich habe mir das T-Shirt eingesaut"

On a total unrelated note, is there any pattern for the gender of inanimate English loans in StG?

In this case, das T-Shirt takes its neuter gender from das Hemd.

This is pretty common for borrowings, though it can be overridden by morphological considerations. For example, borrowed nouns ending in -er are almost invariably masculine, since -er is a masculine agent suffix in German. (For instance, the nearest German equivalent of "e-reader" is das Lesegerät, but we have der E-Reader, and not *das E-Reader; Callcenter, on the other hand, is neuter on the model of das Zentrum.)