Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 8:14 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 6:15 am

And other planets may have brought forth body plans unknown to us, including mammal-like critters with six limbs. And who says that fairies aren't extraterrestrials? Some people say that UFOs and fairies are just different ways of interpreting the same phenomenon, and that seems plausible to me. (Though I am not convinced that this "same phenomenon" really are extraterrestrial space travellers - but I won't rule out even that.)

Counterpoint: what if the reported creatures usually interpreted as space aliens really do exist, but are actually some kind of supernatural demons, rather than space travellers? (No, I'm not saying that I actually believe that.)

Indeed, we cannot exclude that (though I do not consider that likely, either).

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:40 pm

linguistcat wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 2:35 pm On the original tumblr poll I was one of the people who answer fairy, despite believing fairies (or some equivalent) exist, because I have anti-fairy measures. I don't have anti-walrus measures. I trust my anti-fairy measures (and the probability they aren't real) more than I trust someone couldn't get a walrus and put it on my doorstep.

So many questions! Why are anti-fairies measures needed and how does fairy prevention work?

While fairies are neither good nor evil on a whole, there are malicious fae and even a few that aren't malicious but would still steal children away. Traditionally, salt at entrance ways, objects made of iron, certain herbs, and religious items or some magic talismans are all ways to keep them away or protect oneself from them. Though it's not so much I go out of my way to protect against fairies specifically, more than I have items that work to protect against a lot of things (charms from the shrine for my religion) and fairies happen to be one group they would protect against.

I'm generally pro-fairy, outside my house and at respectful distances. That is, if they exist at all. I'm fine carrying the mental dissonance that I believe they do but know they may well not. That said, I'd say I have more direct experience with the supernatural than I do with walruses, despite also being sure walruses exist.

A walrus is a thing that verifiably exists, with defined ecology, biomechanics, etc. whereas fairies, as fictional things, are defined only within the confines of individual stories. If a walrus is at your door then while something is clearly wrong with the universe the amount of wrongness is fixed and finite. By contrast, if a fairy is at your door then there's no telling how many things you thought you knew about the universe are wrong, because you don't actually know what fairies are.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 9:11 amTraditional folklore says that they're magical, but if you'd just met one, how would you tell if they are? At first, you'd just see a small person with wings.

granted, but also if i saw a person with wings I don't think I'd think "oh, a fairy". I'd sooner think "oh shit a person with wings". I'd only think "oh, a fairy" if I felt i knew what fairies looked like or something: therefore, if in the story the scene is narrated with "a fairy knocks on your door" i kind of feel like the I in the story knows what fairies look like, and has probably seen fairies before in the story. this implication probably makes the fairy less surprising. like, the way it's worded influences the outcome -a common problem we pollsters face: the results would be different if you had to choose which _image_ is most surprising, one of a walrus at the door and one of whatever a fairy looks like at the door. then, of course, the outcome would be probably a function of the particular drawings used.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:57 pm

malloc wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 5:14 pmThe revelation that fairies exist would utterly refute my entire worldview along with that of pretty much everyone I trust on scientific and epistemological issues.

A few people on Metafilter said the same, and I don't get it. What exactly would fairies refute? They aren't even supernatural beings.

Ah, I'm with malloc and a bit surprised; aren't fairies supernatural by definition? And of course having an actual experience with the supernatural would definitely upend my worldview.
I'd add that fairies are supernatural, of the kind of supernatural even mainstream religion dismissed as superstition. So encountering an actual fairy would mean I'd have a lot to think about.

Though of course how can you tell it's a fairy? In medieval folklore they don't look like Tinkerbell; they're not different from human women in appearance, though with supernatural powers and subject to supernatural rules.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Sun Sep 22, 2024 11:53 am While fairies are neither good nor evil on a whole, there are malicious fae and even a few that aren't malicious but would still steal children away. Traditionally, salt at entrance ways, objects made of iron, certain herbs, and religious items or some magic talismans are all ways to keep them away or protect oneself from them. Though it's not so much I go out of my way to protect against fairies specifically, more than I have items that work to protect against a lot of things (charms from the shrine for my religion) and fairies happen to be one group they would protect against.

I'm generally pro-fairy, outside my house and at respectful distances. That is, if they exist at all. I'm fine carrying the mental dissonance that I believe they do but know they may well not. That said, I'd say I have more direct experience with the supernatural than I do with walruses, despite also being sure walruses exist.

Thanks; very interesting!

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 2:03 am

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Sep 21, 2024 9:57 pm A few people on Metafilter said the same, and I don't get it. What exactly would fairies refute? They aren't even supernatural beings.

Ah, I'm with malloc and a bit surprised; aren't fairies supernatural by definition?

Nailing down anything in folklore is kind of a fool's quest; but I'd say no, not by definition. Compare an angel, who is a spiritual being who either has no physical body or merely puts it on to appear to humans. Fairies are physical beings-- more like Islamic jinn or Tolkien's elves than like angels.

Though of course how can you tell it's a fairy? In medieval folklore they don't look like Tinkerbell; they're not different from human women in appearance, though with supernatural powers and subject to supernatural rules.

They have magical powers, but what that means that depends on your view of magic, doesn't it? In folklore human wizards can use magic, but surely that doesn't make humans supernatural. (In Malory it's taken as a given that queens can do magic... paging Dr. Freud...)

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 2:47 am Nailing down anything in folklore is kind of a fool's quest; but I'd say no, not by definition. Compare an angel, who is a spiritual being who either has no physical body or merely puts it on to appear to humans. Fairies are physical beings-- more like Islamic jinn or Tolkien's elves than like angels.

Though of course how can you tell it's a fairy? In medieval folklore they don't look like Tinkerbell; they're not different from human women in appearance, though with supernatural powers and subject to supernatural rules.

They have magical powers, but what that means that depends on your view of magic, doesn't it? In folklore human wizards can use magic, but surely that doesn't make humans supernatural. (In Malory it's taken as a given that queens can do magic... paging Dr. Freud...)

Interesting how we can have different views! I do picture fairies as corporeal.
For me, at least, the idea of magic, and being/people able to do magic would be huge upheaval in our understanding of reality. Though plenty of people would disagree... a lot of people believe in magic / witchcraft, in one way or another.
And there are plenty of grey areas. I don't believe in qi and it might as well be witchcraft as far as I'm concerned; but I know shiatsu practicioners and they don't see it as supernatural.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:19 am For me, at least, the idea of magic, and being/people able to do magic would be huge upheaval in our understanding of reality.

I agree with you there, but that may be that I find magic kind of the poorest idea in conworlding. I'd be much less discomfited to find that gods or other supernatural beings exist.

(To put it another way: that gods can understand and react to human desires... sure, why not. That stones and fire can do so... nah.)

And there are plenty of grey areas. I don't believe in qi and it might as well be witchcraft as far as I'm concerned; but I know shiatsu practicioners and they don't see it as supernatural.

The irony with that sort of thing is that qi would have fit in just fine with science a hundred years ago. Reductionism turned out to be a good bet.

At least we can wonder what the hell dark matter is!

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 4:23 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 3:19 am For me, at least, the idea of magic, and being/people able to do magic would be huge upheaval in our understanding of reality.

I agree with you there, but that may be that I find magic kind of the poorest idea in conworlding. I'd be much less discomfited to find that gods or other supernatural beings exist.

(To put it another way: that gods can understand and react to human desires... sure, why not. That stones and fire can do so... nah.)

Concurred. This is, basically, the main reason why I prefer science fiction over fantasy (though good fantasy can be better than bad science fiction). D&D-style magic opens up giant loopholes that cause the logic of the plot to collapse. The only kind of magic I can stomach is the kind that can make things happen which otherwise could happen by chance, such as a lightning bolt hitting a particular target during a thunderstorm (and actually, traditional magic is mostly of this kind). But with my Elvenpath project, I have decided that there's not even that - I want my Elves to be perfectly normal humans without any superhuman or supernatural traits or abilities. Because it is solarpunk, not fantasy. And solarpunk is only really good if the solutions it presents actually work - otherwise it would be pointless. And we need more such positive visions in order to cope with the problems we are facing, and the current ascendancy of far-right movements is IMHO mainly because many people are scared about the future, and are thus susceptible to promises to bring back a seemingly better and simpler past.

If I met a fairy on my doorstep I'd think my meds simply needed adjusting (as someone else somewhere else put it). If I met a walrus on my doorstep I would think that something was seriously wrong, like how did I miss the front end loader going up my front walk to transport it there (the most rational way this could happen if there is one), and why in hell would someone transport a walrus to my doorstep in the first place, or otherwise how in hell would a walrus get there under its own power (especially since walruses are not freshwater creatures and hence would have a hard time going through the Great Lakes to get here, and even then it would have to go approximately 33 miles overland to get here from Lake Michigan)?

(Honestly the most rational explanation for a walrus ending up on my doorstep, now that I think of it, is that one escaped from the Milwaukee County Zoo, crossed multiple highways and freeways, and somehow decided to head for my house...)

(Hmm... from one thing I read the Milwaukee County Zoo had walruses, but from searching with their "Meet Our Animals" feature it does not find any...)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:31 am(Hmm... from one thing I read the Milwaukee County Zoo had walruses, but from searching with their "Meet Our Animals" feature it does not find any...)

...because nobody wants to admit that theirs escaped in an effort to meet you?

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 9:45 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:31 am(Hmm... from one thing I read the Milwaukee County Zoo had walruses, but from searching with their "Meet Our Animals" feature it does not find any...)

...because nobody wants to admit that theirs escaped in an effort to meet you?

Yeah, I remember Brookfield Zoo's walrus, but it's gone now. Obviously, they're conspiring somewhere.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:06 am

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 9:45 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 10:31 am(Hmm... from one thing I read the Milwaukee County Zoo had walruses, but from searching with their "Meet Our Animals" feature it does not find any...)

...because nobody wants to admit that theirs escaped in an effort to meet you?

Yeah, I remember Brookfield Zoo's walrus, but it's gone now. Obviously, they're conspiring somewhere.

They were magically transported away by fairies?

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 2:10 am

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 12:06 am

keenir wrote: ↑Tue Sep 24, 2024 9:45 pm...because nobody wants to admit that theirs escaped in an effort to meet you?

Yeah, I remember Brookfield Zoo's walrus, but it's gone now. Obviously, they're conspiring somewhere.

They were magically transported away by fairies?

My money is on walruses being the same as fairies...what better disguise?

As Travis said: if I met a walrus at my front door, I'd wonder why someone took the trouble hauling it there, but then, people sometimes do bizarre things. If I met a fairy at my front door, I'd ask myself what it is because I do not believe in fairies, and think that it probably really was something else - what else, depends on what precisely the "fairy" looks like: a human-sized fairy, for instance, would probably just be a human in a fairy costume (which would be much less bizarre than a walrus), but a tiny one would have to be something else (which may be more bizarre than a walrus).

Why has no one considered the very human meanings of fairy?

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:20 pm Why has no one considered the very human meanings of fairy?

And how do you plan on telling that someone at your doorstep is one? It's not like they all wear earrings and mascara in reality.

but in human language, if I say "I looked outside my door and saw a fairy" they mean something like "(...) and saw someone who looked like a fairy to me". the person in question might not be a fairy at all. they might even be a wizard!

Torco wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 5:10 pm but in human language, if I say "I looked outside my door and saw a fairy" they mean something like "(...) and saw someone who looked like a fairy to me". the person in question might not be a fairy at all. they might even be a wizard!

To me "I looked outside my door and saw a fairy" means "I looked outside my door and saw a diminutive magical humanoid being with wings".

Richard W wrote: ↑Wed Sep 25, 2024 4:20 pm Why has no one considered the very human meanings of fairy?

Quite. This whole thing has made me wonder if the 'very human meanings of fairy' might be less prevalent in the USA / elsewhere than they are here in the UK...

My immediate reaction to the whole thing was: fairies knock on my door on a regular basis, and also, it's not the location of the walrus that bothers me, it's that it's knocking...

Zomp points out that medieval fairies were, basically, people. I think this is still partially active over here. Though it would be considered old-fashioned, people might still be described as a bit "fey" (perhaps relating to sexuality / gender presentation, but more likely, they are just a bit alternative and dreamy and get lost on the way to the bathroom: it's someone basically who doesn't fit one or more of the norms) and if I hear the word fairy what I think about first is definitely not Tinkerbell.

Actually part of that is down to the Artemis Fowl books by Eoin Colfer: they presented a very medieval, very Irish, kind of fairy to a Harry Potter-weaned teen audience and it stuck pretty well -- particularly because I later found it was very cohesive with those sources.

As for a more serious reaction to the thought experiment, I think with the fairy (let's say à la Tinkerbell) my brain automatically would go down the route of "ok this thing looks like a fairy but obviously there's some kind of explanation; also did I take something without realising it?". If the walrus was knocking at my door I would, by comparison, die of shock. If it was just sitting outside my house, I would think, wow, the local zoo has really let its security slip.