Page 2 of 5
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:35 pm
by Darren
vlad wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:37 am
jcb wrote: How should somebody with a rhotic accent correctly say those words? /"kernz/, /"mElbr=n/, and /"brIzbIn/ ?
Probably, yeah.
bradrn wrote:Um… the same way? As far as I can see, none of those has any rhotic vowels in the ‘correct’ pronunciation (which is the first one).
Rhotic speakers shouldn't be expected to pronounce Australian placenames in a non-rhotic way, any more than Australians should be expected to use a rhotic pronunciation for foreign placenames.
I agree that /ˈmɛlbɹn/ would be correct, although Cairns is irregular. Most people pronounce it with the BAD vowel rather than the SQUARE vowel, so theoretically a rhotic speaker should say /kænz/. The problem with explaining this to Americans is that the /æː/ of BAD, especially raised to something like [ɛː] before a nasal, sounds very similar to the SQUARE vowel [eː], so they assume that "Cairns is pronounced like
cans" is just an approximation of the Australian SQUARE vowel, which they then assimilate as /eɹ/. Then again, there's some Australians who say /keːnz/ (i.e. with SQUARE), so I can't really say that /keɹnz/ is wrong.
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:38 pm
by jcb
Lērisama wrote:No, but the Starting point of PRICE is CUT¹
I agree, for me [@j] is allophonic with [aj] (or maybe [Aj]), depending on the the following consonant (especially the voicing). Thus, I would still write it phonemically as /aj/ (or /Aj/).
[@j]
- price, lice, bite, pipe, scythe, fire, dike
[aj]
- prize, lies, bide, imbibe, tithe, file, (sometimes "tiger", but this word sometimes has [@j] too), mine, mime, fly
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:59 pm
by jcb
I agree that /ˈmɛlbɹn/ would be correct, although Cairns is irregular. Most people pronounce it with the BAD vowel rather than the SQUARE vowel, so theoretically a rhotic speaker should say /kænz/. The problem with explaining this to Americans is that the /æː/ of BAD, especially raised to something like [ɛː] before a nasal, sounds very similar to the SQUARE vowel [eː], so they assume that "Cairns is pronounced like cans" is just an approximation of the Australian SQUARE vowel, which they then assimilate as /eɹ/. Then again, there's some Australians who say /keːnz/ (i.e. with SQUARE), so I can't really say that /keɹnz/ is wrong.
Also, I merge MARRY-MERRY-MARY into /er/.
In the dialect here Maryland is /ˈmɛ̝rələnd/ [ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤɯːɰɘ̃ːnt] -- I have never actually heard anyone pronounce it *Mary-land */ˈmɛ̝riːˌlænd/ *[ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤiːˌʟ̞ɛ̃ːnt].
Agreed. I don't live anywhere Maryland, and have never heard anyone pronounce it "Mary-land".
***
Thanks for all the examples, everybody!
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 4:56 pm
by Richard W
There's the case of Stiffkey, which locals pronounce with /ɪf/ rather than /uː/ or other variants based on the first morpheme being a word stew.
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 5:53 pm
by bradrn
vlad wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:37 am
jcb wrote: How should somebody with a rhotic accent correctly say those words? /"kernz/, /"mElbr=n/, and /"brIzbIn/ ?
Probably, yeah.
bradrn wrote:Um… the same way? As far as I can see, none of those has any rhotic vowels in the ‘correct’ pronunciation (which is the first one).
Rhotic speakers shouldn't be expected to pronounce Australian placenames in a non-rhotic way, any more than Australians should be expected to use a rhotic pronunciation for foreign placenames.
But we can still talk about phoneme correspondences between dialects! And none of /ˈkæːnz/, /ˈmɛlbən/, /ˈbɹɪzbən/ has a vowel which corresponds to a rhotic vowel in any other dialect.
(On the other hand, the pronunciations /ˈkɛːnz/ and /ˈmɛlbəːn/ do have vowels which would be rhotic elsewhere. But I’ve never heard these pronunciations — either rhotic or non-rhotic — except from non-Australians.)
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:09 pm
by Darren
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 5:53 pm
But we can still talk about phoneme correspondences between dialects! And none of /ˈkæːnz/, /ˈmɛlbən/, /ˈbɹɪzbən/ has a vowel which corresponds to a rhotic vowel in any other dialect.
(On the other hand, the pronunciations /ˈkɛːnz/ and /ˈmɛlbəːn/ do have vowels which would be rhotic elsewhere. But I’ve never heard these pronunciations — either rhotic or non-rhotic — except from non-Australians.)
I'd call the second vowel in Melbourne lettER, as in
auburn,
bittern,
cistern etc. So /ˈmɛlbɹn/ is acceptable as long as the second syllable is unstressed.
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:27 pm
by bradrn
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:09 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 5:53 pm
But we can still talk about phoneme correspondences between dialects! And none of /ˈkæːnz/, /ˈmɛlbən/, /ˈbɹɪzbən/ has a vowel which corresponds to a rhotic vowel in any other dialect.
(On the other hand, the pronunciations /ˈkɛːnz/ and /ˈmɛlbəːn/ do have vowels which would be rhotic elsewhere. But I’ve never heard these pronunciations — either rhotic or non-rhotic — except from non-Australians.)
I'd call the second vowel in Melbourne lettER, as in
auburn,
bittern,
cistern etc. So /ˈmɛlbɹn/ is acceptable as long as the second syllable is unstressed.
Now that’s interesting, because none of those three words have lettER for me. They have the NURSE vowel as [əːn], whereas lettER is [-ɐ].
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:49 pm
by Darren
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:27 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:09 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 5:53 pm
But we can still talk about phoneme correspondences between dialects! And none of /ˈkæːnz/, /ˈmɛlbən/, /ˈbɹɪzbən/ has a vowel which corresponds to a rhotic vowel in any other dialect.
(On the other hand, the pronunciations /ˈkɛːnz/ and /ˈmɛlbəːn/ do have vowels which would be rhotic elsewhere. But I’ve never heard these pronunciations — either rhotic or non-rhotic — except from non-Australians.)
I'd call the second vowel in Melbourne lettER, as in
auburn,
bittern,
cistern etc. So /ˈmɛlbɹn/ is acceptable as long as the second syllable is unstressed.
Now that’s interesting, because none of those three words have lettER for me. They have the NURSE vowel as [əːn], whereas lettER is [-ɐ].
Oh, really? How about "govern", "stubborn", "western", "pattern", "lantern", "eastern" and "modern"?
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:15 pm
by Travis B.
The thing to remember when converting those names to the phonologies of most NAE varieties is that most NAE varieties make no distinction between NURSE and lettER. For me at least the two are realized exactly the same. (Also remember that most NAE varieties lack phonemic vowel length.)
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:41 pm
by Darren
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:15 pm
The thing to remember when converting those names to the phonologies of most NAE varieties is that most NAE varieties make no distinction between NURSE and lettER. For me at least the two are realized exactly the same. (Also remember that most NAE varieties lack phonemic vowel length.)
The problem with Melbourne is one of stress - it's stressed-unstressed, not stressed-secondarily.stressed.
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:05 pm
by bradrn
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:49 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:27 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 7:09 pm
I'd call the second vowel in Melbourne lettER, as in
auburn,
bittern,
cistern etc. So /ˈmɛlbɹn/ is acceptable as long as the second syllable is unstressed.
Now that’s interesting, because none of those three words have lettER for me. They have the NURSE vowel as [əːn], whereas lettER is [-ɐ].
Oh, really? How about "govern", "stubborn", "western", "pattern", "lantern", "eastern" and "modern"?
They all have what amounts to a syllabic /n/, though in my idiolect the actual realisation has a lot of variation: something like [ˈɡɐv(ə)n], [ˈstɐbn̩], [ˈwe̞sᵈn̩], [ˈpʰæᵈn̩], [ˈlæntˢən], [ˈiˑstən], [ˈmɒᵈn̩]. So I guess it’s something different to both lettER and NURSE.
(In those first three words you gave me, lettER may be a spelling pronunciation: they’re rare words and I’m not sure if I’ve heard them spoken out loud.)
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:41 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:15 pm
The thing to remember when converting those names to the phonologies of most NAE varieties is that most NAE varieties make no distinction between NURSE and lettER. For me at least the two are realized exactly the same. (Also remember that most NAE varieties lack phonemic vowel length.)
The problem with Melbourne is one of stress - it's stressed-unstressed, not stressed-secondarily.stressed.
Yes, agreed.
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:37 pm
by Travis B.
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:41 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:15 pm
The thing to remember when converting those names to the phonologies of most NAE varieties is that most NAE varieties make no distinction between NURSE and lettER. For me at least the two are realized exactly the same. (Also remember that most NAE varieties lack phonemic vowel length.)
The problem with Melbourne is one of stress - it's stressed-unstressed, not stressed-secondarily.stressed.
In the case of
Melbourne that would make very little difference to me -- it would either be [ˈmɜːɤ̯bʁ̩̃ˤ(ː)(n)] or [ˈmɜːɤ̯ˌbʁ̩̃ˤ(ː)(n)] one way or another.
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:43 pm
by Darren
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:37 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:41 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:15 pm
The thing to remember when converting those names to the phonologies of most NAE varieties is that most NAE varieties make no distinction between NURSE and lettER. For me at least the two are realized exactly the same. (Also remember that most NAE varieties lack phonemic vowel length.)
The problem with Melbourne is one of stress - it's stressed-unstressed, not stressed-secondarily.stressed.
In the case of
Melbourne that would make very little difference to me -- it would either be [ˈmɜːɤ̯bʁ̩̃ˤ(ː)(n)] or [ˈmɜːɤ̯ˌbʁ̩̃ˤ(ː)(n)] one way or another.
The main gripe is people pronouncing it /ˈmɛlˌbɔɹn/ (or whatever monstrosity that would be realised as in your dialect).
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:58 pm
by Travis B.
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:43 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:37 pm
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 8:41 pm
The problem with Melbourne is one of stress - it's stressed-unstressed, not stressed-secondarily.stressed.
In the case of
Melbourne that would make very little difference to me -- it would either be [ˈmɜːɤ̯bʁ̩̃ˤ(ː)(n)] or [ˈmɜːɤ̯ˌbʁ̩̃ˤ(ː)(n)] one way or another.
The main gripe is people pronouncing it /ˈmɛlˌbɔɹn/ (or whatever monstrosity that would be realised as in your dialect).
I would pronounce */ˈmɛlˌbɔɹn/ as the monstrosity *[ˈmɜːɤ̯ˌbɔ̃(ː)ʁ̃ˤ(n)].
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 10:03 pm
by Darren
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:58 pm
I would pronounce */ˈmɛlˌbɔɹn/ as the monstrosity *[ˈmɜːɤ̯ˌbɔ̃(ː)ʁ̃ˤ(n)].
Thank you, that is just as monstrous as I had hoped.
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 10:19 pm
by Travis B.
Darren wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 10:03 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 9:58 pm
I would pronounce */ˈmɛlˌbɔɹn/ as the monstrosity *[ˈmɜːɤ̯ˌbɔ̃(ː)ʁ̃ˤ(n)].
Thank you, that is just as monstrous as I had hoped.
I can imagine it would sound monstrous to an Australian even if you guys did pronounce it */ˈmɛlˌboːn/-- after all my DRESS in the first syllable is awfully close to your NURSE...
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 10:54 pm
by Nortaneous
jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:59 pm
In the dialect here Maryland is /ˈmɛ̝rələnd/ [ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤɯːɰɘ̃ːnt] -- I have never actually heard anyone pronounce it *Mary-land */ˈmɛ̝riːˌlænd/ *[ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤiːˌʟ̞ɛ̃ːnt].
Agreed. I don't live anywhere Maryland, and have never heard anyone pronounce it "Mary-land".
I grew up there and I have. Many people (especially those from outside the US) have only seen it in writing.
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:54 pm
by bradrn
jcb wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 3:59 pm
In the dialect here Maryland is /ˈmɛ̝rələnd/ [ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤɯːɰɘ̃ːnt] -- I have never actually heard anyone pronounce it *Mary-land */ˈmɛ̝riːˌlænd/ *[ˈmɛ̝ːʁˤiːˌʟ̞ɛ̃ːnt].
Agreed. I don't live anywhere Maryland, and have never heard anyone pronounce it "Mary-land".
Wait, you mean Maryland
isn’t pronounced that way? Then how should I be pronouncing it?
(This reminds me of when I discovered that Arkansas is
not pronounced like Kansas…)
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2024 12:24 am
by Man in Space
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:54 pmWait, you mean Maryland
isn’t pronounced that way? Then how should I be pronouncing it?
[ˈmɛɻɨˌlɨn(ʔ)].
Re: Place names that are pronounced differently in only that specific place.
Posted: Thu Dec 26, 2024 12:32 am
by bradrn
Man in Space wrote: ↑Thu Dec 26, 2024 12:24 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 25, 2024 11:54 pmWait, you mean Maryland
isn’t pronounced that way? Then how should I be pronouncing it?
[ˈmɛɻɨˌlɨn(ʔ)].
So here we have the opposite problem to what we were just discussing: what would this be in my dialect? If I say [ˈmɛɻɨˌlɨn(ʔ)] it makes me sound American…