Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Tue Jul 02, 2019 3:23 pm**

anteallach wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 2:08 pm
Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:17 am
MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:43 pm I would add that AFAICT most varieties of English do not in fact pronounce [æ] but [a]. The phonetics lab archive seems intresting though; I'll go on when I'm on a more advanced computer.
What counts as "most varieties of English"? I have seen this claim made before about EngE, but I have never heard it made about NAE or AusE.

And what do you have for [a] anyways? (Are you literally treating it as a low front vowel, as opposed to the low central vowel everyone uses it for?) I have [a] for PALM, yet the vowel I have for it is lower and more central than the vowel most Americans have in TRAP.
[a] is found in TRAP words (except before nasals) in North American dialects with the Canadian and Californian shifts. These dialects are generally those which have PALM and LOT merged with THOUGHT as a definitely back vowel.

It is apparently also a feature of the dialect of Providence, Rhode Island.

I should note that almost everyone I speak to is from the Upper Midwest, most of whom have some degree of the NCVS, excluding people from outside of the US. (I should note that [a] for TRAP being found in California and Canadian-shifted lects "most varieties of English" does not make.)

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 1:48 am**

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:25 am
MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:49 amI checked it up and it turns out I was wrong: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... h_dialects. I had thought that GA had [a] and I thought this was more common Canadian and irish English as well.
[a] is rather common in Chicago--in PALM and LOT words. (That's actually how I learned for use in other languages.)

Yeah, which can cause interdialectal confusion.

I had got the impression that there was a merger between those and TRAP but ity turns out that's traditional Northern Irish, not an American variety.

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:38 am**

TRAP for people with the NCVS is a diphthong somewhere in the realm of [ɛə~eə~ɪə], so it's pretty distinct from LOT/PALM down at [a]. What exact diphthong I have, I've never been able to pin down. You know how it is when you try to examine your own dialect.

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:22 am**

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:38 am TRAP for people with the NCVS is a diphthong somewhere in the realm of [ɛə~eə~ɪə], so it's pretty distinct from LOT/PALM down at [a]. What exact diphthong I have, I've never been able to pin down. You know how it is when you try to examine your own dialect.

The Inland North dialect here does not have as pronounced of a raising/breaking, raising it to just [ɛ] without breaking most of the time, except before nasals where it breaks to [ɛə].

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:57 am**

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 7:38 amTRAP for people with the NCVS is a diphthong somewhere in the realm of [ɛə~eə~ɪə], so it's pretty distinct from LOT/PALM down at [a]. What exact diphthong I have, I've never been able to pin down. You know how it is when you try to examine your own dialect.

I have an unusually low nucleus for /eɪ̯/ so that makes this even more challenging for me. (I don't have a diphthong there unless I'm consciously parodying a broad Chicago accent.)

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 12:02 pm**

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 10:57 am I have an unusually low nucleus for /eɪ̯/ so that makes this even more challenging for me. (I don't have a diphthong there unless I'm consciously parodying a broad Chicago accent.)

At one point I picked up a pronounced [iɛ] from my now-ex for TRAP (who is from the South Side of Milwaukee), but I have since largely lost it and reverted back to my normal [ɛ]~[ɛə].

Posted: **Wed Jul 03, 2019 3:16 pm**

Jamaican English can merge TRAP and LOT as [a] and PALM and THOUGHT as [a:].

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:56 pm**

How do you pronounce an ingressive consonant? I can't do it without making it having a strange voice, like snoring.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:28 pm**

Akangka wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 4:56 pm How do you pronounce an ingressive consonant? I can't do it without making it having a strange voice, like snoring.

There’s several types of ingressives:

Clicks are easy — many languages have them in interjections, and I suspect that most people can pronounce them without any training. (Of course, this may differ for you; if so, please reply and I’ll try to explain how to pronounce them.)
Implosives are quite a bit trickier. I’d explain their pronunciation here, but Wikipedia has a very nice guide.
Wikipedia mentions pulmonic ingressives as well, but I don’t know how to pronounce them, and they seem quite rare in any case.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2019 6:18 pm**

Pulmonic impressive just means talking while breathing in. I don't think any language could contrast it with normal breathing in common words, but short paralinguistic utterances like /s::::/ when you see someone skin their knee are feasible.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:16 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:28 pm Clicks are easy — many languages have them in interjections, and I suspect that most people can pronounce them without any training. (Of course, this may differ for you; if so, please reply and I’ll try to explain how to pronounce them.)

Yeah, it's easy.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:28 pm Implosives are quite a bit trickier. I’d explain their pronunciation here, but Wikipedia has a very nice guide.

It's trickier than clicks, but I thought I have asked for it before.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:28 pm [*] Wikipedia mentions pulmonic ingressives as well, but I don’t know how to pronounce them, and they seem quite rare in any case.

That's exactly what I'm asking. And apparently, it's actually common, although exclusively paralinguistic.

Posted: **Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:19 pm**

Akangka wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:16 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:28 pm [*] Wikipedia mentions pulmonic ingressives as well, but I don’t know how to pronounce them, and they seem quite rare in any case.
That's exactly what I'm asking. And apparently, it's actually common, although exclusively paralinguistic.

Well, as Pabappa said, you pronounce those by talking while breathing in.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:28 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:19 pm
Akangka wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:16 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 5:28 pm [*] Wikipedia mentions pulmonic ingressives as well, but I don’t know how to pronounce them, and they seem quite rare in any case.
That's exactly what I'm asking. And apparently, it's actually common, although exclusively paralinguistic.
Well, as Pabappa said, you pronounce those by talking while breathing in.

You mean circular breathing?

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:43 am**

Akangka wrote: ↑Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:28 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 10:19 pm
Akangka wrote: ↑Thu Aug 01, 2019 9:16 pm
That's exactly what I'm asking. And apparently, it's actually common, although exclusively paralinguistic.
Well, as Pabappa said, you pronounce those by talking while breathing in.
You mean circular breathing?

No, not circular breathing. That’s when you breathe out of your mouth while at the same time breathing in with your nose. Pulmonic ingressive is when you move your mouth exactly the same as normal pulmonic egressive speech, but breathe in instead of breathing out. The Wikipedia page has a nice example of Norwegian /jɑː/ with pulmonic ingressive airstream.

Posted: **Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:50 am**

How to pronounce alveolar flap next to alveolar approximant. This consonant cluster appears in American English. I can pronounce either just fine. However, when the two are together, it becomes a difficult cluster. For example: party is pronounced [pʰɑːɹɾi]

Posted: **Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:50 pm**

Maybe it's not really an alveolar approximant but rather a rhoticized vowel, and the flap could also be retroflex.

Posted: **Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:27 pm**

To me it is easy, since it is a uvular approximant followed by flap or by nothing at all.

Posted: **Fri Oct 04, 2019 2:29 pm**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:50 am How to pronounce alveolar flap next to alveolar approximant. This consonant cluster appears in American English. I can pronounce either just fine. However, when the two are together, it becomes a difficult cluster. For example: party is pronounced [pʰɑːɹɾi]

it's easy. the tip of the tongue makes contact at the back of the alveolar ridge and moves down toward the teeth. as opposed to the normal tap, which is articulated near the front of the alveolar ridge

Posted: **Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:43 am**

Ryan of Tinellb wrote: ↑Sun Jun 30, 2019 8:30 pm How are the fricatives in Basque/Euskara pronounced? Or, which of <s> and <z> is most similar to the <s> in your English idiolect?

I don't think anybody ever answered this question! Maybe pointless now, but just in case:

Basque <z> is the closest to my English <s>. Basque <s> probably sounds postalveolar to a lot of people but is really just [s] with the tongue tip much closer to the alveolar ridge.

Posted: **Tue Apr 20, 2021 12:44 am**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Fri Oct 04, 2019 10:50 am How to pronounce alveolar flap next to alveolar approximant. This consonant cluster appears in American English. I can pronounce either just fine. However, when the two are together, it becomes a difficult cluster. For example: party is pronounced [pʰɑːɹɾi]

it's typically a retroflex flap in that position for me (almost pure GenAm)

Zompist Bboard Again

"Pronouncing difficult sounds" thread.

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