Zompist Bboard Again

vegfarandi wrote: ↑Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:56 pm Icelandic traditionally used Christian words as profanity. Genitive forms of nouns referring to the devil are popular: "andskotans, djöfulsins, fjandans, bévítans bölvans" and to hell "helvítis". There's also just breaking the third commandment "Jesús!" "Jesús Kristur!" "Jesús, María og Jósep!" and "Guð minn almáttugur" 'My god almighty'.

As Christianity's power has vaned and correspondingly, the shock value of blasphemy, English cursewords have been liberally borrowed: "fokk, fokking" and "sjitt" are heard all the time now (but with significantly less bite than in English). Interestingly, we've also borrowed a couple of English blasphemous ones: "díses, díses kræst, dísuss, djísöss, dísengs" and "ómægod" should be parsable for you all.

So Icelanders curse for sure, but it's hard to get the same heights in terms of shock value as is possible in English. None of these sting quite the way a well uttered "fuck" can sometimes do in English.

And mind you that in English you can combine obscenity and profanity at the same time, as in "God fucking dammit" and "Jesus fucking Christ", for even more effect.

well even Japanese, which is cited by some as a language without swear words, does seem to actually have some words that can be seen as swear words, at least under certain contexts:

https://www.rypeapp.com/blog/japanese-swear-words/

https://soranews24.com/2016/09/22/w-t-f ... top-five】/

so I think profanity is basically universal.

k1234567890y wrote: ↑Wed Jul 03, 2019 9:28 am well even Japanese, which is cited by some as a language without swear words, does seem to actually have some words that can be seen as swear words, at least under certain contexts:

https://www.rypeapp.com/blog/japanese-swear-words/

https://soranews24.com/2016/09/22/w-t-f ... top-five】/

so I think profanity is basically universal.

The fact that one language often cited as lacking "swear words" might actually have swear words says literally nothing about whether "profanity is universal"

forgetting politeness level in japanese would be a good way to be rude right?
and aren't these just examples of being 'rude'[by western definition of rude] in japanese?

Salmoneus wrote: ↑Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:15 pm
Strictly speaking, profanity and obscenity are different - indeed, they're opposite.

Something is profane when it improperly combines something serious and important (usually something very good or very bad) with something ordinary, in a way that seems to show insufficient respect for the serious topic.

Something is obscene when it improperly combines something private with something public in a way that makes people feel uncomfortable. (this tends to include certain bodily functions and reproductive processes, but can be much wider in cultures with more rigid rules of privacy - eg talking about certain emotions, or about certain financial arrangements, or about honour, or your in-laws, can be regarded as obscene)


The notion of profanity requires the notion of something sacred - they are opposites. [strictly speaking, profanity makes the sacred profane]. However, you certainly don't need organised religion of a pseudo-Christian kind in order to have the sacred - all societies hold things sacred.

In the modern west, saying something like "Mary's tits!", or "by heaven, I will win the next hand!" is no longer particularly profane. But profanity still abounds. Indeed, profanity has taken up a prominent role in modern politics, or at least the media's coverage of politics. From making jokes about Auschwitz to using the n-word inappropriately, when people talk about "crossing a line" in a context that doesn't involve actual attacks on other people, they're usually talking about the line between the profane and the sacred.

[profanity and obscenity are probably the same at an underlying level - the sacred is, as it were, the communal private area, and invasions of the sacred are treated as intrusions on the private space of everybody, which is why they evoke such powerful feelings of anger].


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The essence of "swearing" is that it is a social norm whereby, in certain contexts, social norms of privacy and the sacred are violated, usually in order to demonstrate disregard for the threat of norm-enforcing sanctions (eg, I swear to show I don't care what you think of me, or to show I'm confident that you will still think well of me even if I swear).

The details of this - what is taboo, and which taboo things are 'safe' enough to violate and which remain dangerous, and when it is considered good to violate the taboo - will vary almost completely between cultures. But I think the basic framework is probably universal.

This... has been an interesting thing for me to read, as it leaves me wondering about the simple use of personal names in Chinese.

Chinese traditionally has a strong aversion of using others' given names in nearly all public occasions (we can say that given name is a private thing in Chinese). The historical practice when one has to be identified with a unique name given to the person is by Courtesy Names (字). This tradition ceased in the last century and now people arguably have a less of an aversion of using others' given names, but it's still very strong compared to other societies I know. How unique given names are doesn't seem to be the reason: for example, Turkish given names can be unique and open-class, but given names are what's ordinarily used.

As examples, no matter how close you become with your (former) teacher/(former) prof/aunt/grandpa, you can never address that person with their personal name. Only surnames, titles, and occasionally nicknames are acceptable.

So, simply addressing someone with their given name or full name when you're not supposed to is automatically a horrifying public insult. Does your definition, though, make that...obscenity because given names are private business?

FlamyobatRudki wrote: ↑Sun Jul 21, 2019 7:58 pm forgetting politeness level in japanese would be a good way to be rude right?
and aren't these just examples of being 'rude'[by western definition of rude] in japanese?

That's impolite, though not necessarily insulting. But apart from the examples given above, Japanese literally has a slew of pronouns divided by their politeness and rudeness -- e.g. onore and omae are two rude 2sg pronouns -- and a derogatory name suffix -me.

Apparently, Russian, though perhaps the grand champion of obscene vocabulary, may be entirely without blasphemy. I asked on Wikipedia here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Mat_ ... _at_all%3F

But it occurred to me also that someone here might know. Are there no religious words used at all? And if so, is this because blasphemy is too taboo even for them, or, as I wondered, because 75 years of state atheism has taken all the bite out of blasphemy?

Either way, I think a language that goes over-the-top on words for private parts and sexual practices but has not the slightest hint of blasphemy is even more interesting than a language with no taboo words at all.

(To clarify, I'm using the term blasphemy here in the strict sense of a word that is, in and of itself, considered to offend widely held religious traditions, such as "Jesus!" as an interjection in English. I know that blasphemy in the traditional sense is always possible in any language, as I said further upthread.)

I don't know whether that counts as blasphemy for you, but Russians do invoke the devil in swearing (иди к черту "go to the devil = the devil may take you", черт побери "the devil may take it"). These are seen as relatively mild and can be found in literary texts. Exclamations like боже (мой) "(my) God" and господи "Lord" don't even count as swearing.

Yes that's indeed blasphemy in the sense I was thinking of. The word "profanity" is perhaps more accurate, or at least more specific, but I've been avoiding that word in this thread because its sense has shifted quite a bit in modern English.

Thanks for your answer. Privately, I was hoping that the Russians were just too timid to invoke religious concepts, despite their reputation as the potty mouths of the world. Still, as I said upthread, while I dont use obscene language or blasphemous language, the latter bothers me in a way that the former does not .... probably a lot is due to my upbringing, as I remember being told when I was very young that the two words I was not allowed to say were "hek" and "hel" (sic, I was too young to know how to spell). So, even a euphemism for Hell was too harsh for me but they didnt seem to worry about me using obscene words. But I became religious as I grew older and my dislike of profane language became much stronger.

So to me it's adorable that the entire male population of Russia, and a lot of females, runs around talking about their private parts while thinking they're the world champions in offensive language. Makes me think of third grade. Probably not too many Russians would appreciate that.

Still, I wonder .... what would be an appropriate response to an infuriating situation in Russia? Suppose I was waiting in line for 3 hours to get a ticket or something and then the window closed with just two people in front of me and they told me I had to wait in another line and go to the very back. Some Americans, even religious ones, would say "Jesus Christ! Are you kidding me?!" What would Russians use in this situation?

________
Also, a crosspost from this thread ... did the Ayatollah really say "damn" or are we just taking liberties with the translation?

If by "appropriate" you mean "using mat", I assume it would be something along the lines of Вы что, блядь, спятились?

And I don't think it's timidity that prevents Russians from using religion-based swearing much, it's just not seen as strong enough. Maybe that's hard for you to understand with your background as you explained it in your post. As an example, in German there is religion-based swearing, and I understand that for a religious Catholic Bavarian "Kruzifix" may be a strong swear word, but to me with my secular upbringing it just sounds quaint, like using "pudding" or "hamburger" as swear words.

Seirios wrote: ↑Mon Nov 04, 2019 12:06 amSo, simply addressing someone with their given name or full name when you're not supposed to is automatically a horrifying public insult. Does your definition, though, make that...obscenity because given names are private business?

Salmoneus drew the line between profanity and obscenity as the publicly serious (mistreated as ordinary/banal) vs. the private (mistreated as public). I think an alternative way to phrase that would be that profanity involves taking the sacred (or the hellish dark) and bring it down (or up) to be normal, whereas obscenity involves taking what is private and above all shameful (body functions, sexual acts, maybe certain feelings among the manly and stoic) and bring it out as normal.

Much of the concept of honour across cultures revolves around the interaction of reputation and sexual acts / social decency, and in-law taboos are especially common between a mother and her son-in-law. Problems around financial arrangements often involve shameful details that the affected would prefer were not talked about.

If we consider obscenity to be about bringing out something shameful that's supposed to be private, then maybe this Mandarin taboo is about profanity, not obscenity. I notice that the four relations you listed involve talking to a social superior (a teacher/prof/aunt/grandpa). It's not that people are ashamed of their given name, but hearing a social inferior call them by their given name shows that that social inferior disregards the sacredness of the social hierarchy and the sacredness of the aged.



In the Spanish I speak, I simply can't address someone who is 60 years or older with the informal pronoun vos (and its related conjugations). Well, my dad will reach the age of 60 in a few years, and I'll still talk to him with vos, but that'll be a first. I will certainly never really be able to talk to his younger sister, currently about 50 years old, with vos, no matter what.

I don't know why it's disrespectful to talk directly like that to social superior in Mandarin, but in my Spanish, talking to an elderly stranger with vos would show I have no respect whatsoever to any good s/he may have accomplished in his/her life, as if I was a young spoiled brat with zero gratitude to the efforts of other adults in society... Sounds like sacred stuff to me.

Pabappa wrote: ↑Sat Jan 04, 2020 2:37 pmThanks for your answer. Privately, I was hoping that the Russians were just too timid to invoke religious concepts, despite their reputation as the potty mouths of the world. Still, as I said upthread, while I dont use obscene language or blasphemous language, the latter bothers me in a way that the former does not .... probably a lot is due to my upbringing, as I remember being told when I was very young that the two words I was not allowed to say were "hek" and "hel" (sic, I was too young to know how to spell). So, even a euphemism for Hell was too harsh for me but they didnt seem to worry about me using obscene words. But I became religious as I grew older and my dislike of profane language became much stronger.

So to me it's adorable that the entire male population of Russia, and a lot of females, runs around talking about their private parts while thinking they're the world champions in offensive language. Makes me think of third grade. Probably not too many Russians would appreciate that.

As hwhatting just said, I think this has more to do with your background. El Salvador doesn't have the history of atheism Russia has (today, with about 10% of the population calling themselves non-Christian, usually vaguely spiritual, agnostic or atheistic, we're seeing the least religious El Salvador there has ever been), and yet we hardly have an inventory of blasphemies/profanities. There is ¡(Por) Dios! "(By) God!", which rarely bothers Christian people, and various uses of the word demonios 'demons' (e.g. ¡Qué demonios! 'What the fuck?'), which do bother Christians, but that's about it. We don't have anything involving Jesus, Mary, Heaven or Hell.

Most Salvadorans, like me, are much more bothered by certain uses of puta 'whore' or a number of obscene phrases than the Christian phrases (obscene phrases such as sangre por las venas 'blood [is running] through my veins', which implies caca por el culo 'shit through my ass' and similar phrases involving semen, even if these latter ones are not said).

It seems fruitful to me to posit that the Western tradition of profanity is a specifically Christian thing, descended from the prohibition not to take the Lord's name in vain via more generalized religious oaths down to today, where the religious beliefs that originally drove the tradition are largely gone but the act itself remains, even if now powered by the more culturally universal vocabulary of the more unsavory bodily functions.