Why does he exist at all? I'd think that in any half-way plausible AH, a few generations after the divergence point at most, none of the people from OTL would be born in the first place.
Voigari: an alternate history Romance language. (NP: irregular verbs)
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : na atternativa storia é la leggua Voigare
Have you already worked out how the Alternate 2019 Empire looks like?
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : na atternativa storia é la leggua Voigare
Very little at this point. I think I'll have to review the whole of European history before I can say anything.
Some ideas: lots of scheming bureaucrats. Eunuchs. The Catholic Church is way more Orthodox. The pope isn't quite as important. Lots of monasteries. There's probably been a Protestant reformation but Protestants live north of the border.
The empire probably didn't go for overseas colonies and America was possibly discovered one or two centuries later than in OTL.
Other than that, it'd probably feel more familiar than we'd expect. In any case it's nothing like the Western Roman Empire as we know it.
Why does he exist at all? I'd think that in any half-way plausible AH, a few generations after the divergence point at most, none of the people from OTL would be born in the first place.
[/quote]
That's funny, I was thinking about that the other day. That's a very good point.
Actually. some guy who may or may not be named Karlu is king of the Franks. (Or Neustria. Or Austrasia.)
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
A small musical break:
Perque piore, bianga nenia?
It's an adaptation (mostly, I shortened it a bit) of a traditional Sephardic song. You can check the original there for the tune:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3uCgdiTzgs
Perque piore, bianga nenia?
Perque piore, bianga fiu ?
Pioro per vu, cavallariu
Qui vu idi e me lasciadi
Me lasciadi nenia è pojjecchia,
Iffande è de poga edatto
Abbio nniniu mmiccinu
Piora é demadda ppane
Si demadda padressu
Què resposa voi dellu?
Misa la manno esso petto
E cendo lebre i dedde
Voi mispiri sette anni
A l'ottavo te marie
Voi predda no baccalare
què paresce ccomo me
què se vesta lle mmie stole
senne sue, senne macchie.
Perque piore, bianga nenia?
It's an adaptation (mostly, I shortened it a bit) of a traditional Sephardic song. You can check the original there for the tune:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3uCgdiTzgs
Perque piore, bianga nenia?
Perque piore, bianga fiu ?
Pioro per vu, cavallariu
Qui vu idi e me lasciadi
Me lasciadi nenia è pojjecchia,
Iffande è de poga edatto
Abbio nniniu mmiccinu
Piora é demadda ppane
Si demadda padressu
Què resposa voi dellu?
Misa la manno esso petto
E cendo lebre i dedde
Voi mispiri sette anni
A l'ottavo te marie
Voi predda no baccalare
què paresce ccomo me
què se vesta lle mmie stole
senne sue, senne macchie.
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
How do you say Eeny, meeny, miny, moe in an alternate universe?
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò
Trei bufette sur' kivozio
que ffaceva ll’amore
colla fija le maestre,
la maestra predde mmalo,
Ambarabà ciccì coccò!
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò.
Three owls on the chest
that were making love
to the schoolmistress' daughter,
the schoolmistress became ill,
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò!
There is an Italian rhyme called Ambarabà ciccì coccò and supposedly it dates back to Roman times. Why? Because the alternation cicci/cocco switches from palatal to velar, so it would make sense if its origin were before palatization...
Well, anyway, supposedly it's from hanc para ab hac quidquid quodquod which doesn't make a lot of sense in Latin, but could mean something like 'prepare whatever from (the hand here) here to (the hand) here' and that's what I used.
Amusingly, the only that would be familiar to Italian schoolchildren is the nonsense first verse.
Oh, by the way, Umberto Eco wrote a parodic account of that rhyme, quoting everyone from Freud to Chomsky, and that's how I remembered the rhyme in the first place.
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò
Trei bufette sur' kivozio
que ffaceva ll’amore
colla fija le maestre,
la maestra predde mmalo,
Ambarabà ciccì coccò!
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò.
Three owls on the chest
that were making love
to the schoolmistress' daughter,
the schoolmistress became ill,
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò!
There is an Italian rhyme called Ambarabà ciccì coccò and supposedly it dates back to Roman times. Why? Because the alternation cicci/cocco switches from palatal to velar, so it would make sense if its origin were before palatization...
Well, anyway, supposedly it's from hanc para ab hac quidquid quodquod which doesn't make a lot of sense in Latin, but could mean something like 'prepare whatever from (the hand here) here to (the hand) here' and that's what I used.
Amusingly, the only that would be familiar to Italian schoolchildren is the nonsense first verse.
Oh, by the way, Umberto Eco wrote a parodic account of that rhyme, quoting everyone from Freud to Chomsky, and that's how I remembered the rhyme in the first place.
-
Kuchigakatai
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:19 pm
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Could also date to a stage of palatalization where /ki/ was the plosive [ci] instead of an affricate, which would give you [c:icˈci k:okˈko], or even [ˈc:ic:i ˈk:ok:o] to keep the penultimate stress of the next line (and the original stress of quidquid quodquod). Native speakers wouldn't necessarily recognize [k] and [c] as distinct sounds.Ars Lande wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:51 pm How do you say Eeny, meeny, miny, moe in an alternate universe?
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò
Trei bufette sur' kivozio
que ffaceva ll’amore
colla fija le maestre,
la maestra predde mmalo,
Ambarabà ciccì coccò!
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò.
Three owls on the chest
that were making love
to the schoolmistress' daughter,
the schoolmistress became ill,
Ambarabà cciccì ccoccò!
There is an Italian rhyme called Ambarabà ciccì coccò and supposedly it dates back to Roman times. Why? Because the alternation cicci/cocco switches from palatal to velar, so it would make sense if its origin were before palatization...
Well, anyway, supposedly it's from hanc para ab hac quidquid quodquod which doesn't make a lot of sense in Latin, but could mean something like 'prepare whatever from (the hand here) here to (the hand) here' and that's what I used.
Also, although it's reasonable, it's not like we really know whether Western Romance had to go through [tʃ] in [ki] > [tʃi] > [tsi], plus isn't there evidence that Old Corsican used to have Latin <ci> > [ki]? I remember once hearing something about there possibly being some island-hopping, very conservative, very late Latin dialect between Corsica, Sardinia, Florence and maybe the Balearic islands, with unpalatalized velars and non-deictic ipsum/ipsam (see the old-fashioned Florentine use of esso/essa as personal pronouns instead of a demonstrative as in the rest of Romance, the Sardinian definite article su/sa and personal pronouns isse/issa, and although Old Catalan may have replaced what existed before in the Balearic islands, notice the Balearic definite article so/sa).
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Oh, sure. But in any case, that would be before the 5th century, I believe.Ser wrote: ↑Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:49 pm Could also date to a stage of palatalization where /ki/ was the plosive [ci] instead of an affricate, which would give you [c:icˈci k:okˈko], or even [ˈc:ic:i ˈk:ok:o] to keep the penultimate stress of the next line (and the original stress of quidquid quodquod). Native speakers wouldn't necessarily recognize [k] and [c] as distinct sounds.
(For all we know, Classical Latin already had [ci] very early on)
You're correct about Sardinian, and early Corsican dialects; I don't know about Catalan. In any case, Sardinian dialects don't palatize /k/, /g/; however Old Florentine definitely did.Also, although it's reasonable, it's not like we really know whether Western Romance had to go through [tʃ] in [ki] > [tʃi] > [tsi], plus isn't there evidence that Old Corsican used to have Latin <ci> > [ki]? I remember once hearing something about there possibly being some island-hopping, very conservative, very late Latin dialect between Corsica, Sardinia, Florence and maybe the Balearic islands, with unpalatalized velars and non-deictic ipsum/ipsam (see the old-fashioned Florentine use of esso/essa as personal pronouns instead of a demonstrative as in the rest of Romance, the Sardinian definite article su/sa and personal pronouns isse/issa, and although Old Catalan may have replaced what existed before in the Balearic islands, notice the Balearic definite article so/sa).
You're right about Western Romance, I believe, in that it's not entirely clear if there was a [tʃ], however both Italian and Voigare are Italo-Romance, where ki > [tʃ] consistently.
-
Kuchigakatai
- Posts: 1307
- Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2018 4:19 pm
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
I'm just doing some fun speculation. 
For romlanging purposes I sometimes like to imagine that, although medieval Florentine had [tʃi], maybe this palatalization of earlier [ki] or [ci] happened only a few centuries before it started being written...
For romlanging purposes I sometimes like to imagine that, although medieval Florentine had [tʃi], maybe this palatalization of earlier [ki] or [ci] happened only a few centuries before it started being written...Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
More declensions: this time, adjectives
Adjectives are a lot easier than nouns. There are two declension classes (okay, maybe three), and few irregularities.
First declension
Well, this one should be fairly unsurprising:
bonu, good
First declension in -er
Fairly similar to the first, but nominative singular -er > -r- in all other forms, and the genitive plural is a little different.
First declension, irregular
aider, 'other' has an irregular genitive singular:
And so does tudu, 'all' (with the added metaphony)
And sulu, 'alone'
(But let's be honest, everybody gets genitives wrong. You'd probably have to explain why you say sojju, toziu instead of suli, tudi)
Second declension
The easy one! Three different endings, and a common paradigm for all genders.
graddi, great, tall, big
Sometimes with the slight complication of a stem change:
atros, 'ghastly'
Comparatives
There are four suppletive forms
bonnu > mejjor, mejori
malu > pejjor, pejori
graddi > majjor, majori
peccinu> mennor, menori
Otherwise, just use mennu + adj (less + ) più + adj (more + adj).
Majjor and mennor coexist with più graddi, più peccinu
You can form an augmentative in -issimu: graddissimu, 'very large', atrocissimu, 'very ghastly'
Adjectives are a lot easier than nouns. There are two declension classes (okay, maybe three), and few irregularities.
First declension
Well, this one should be fairly unsurprising:
bonu, good
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | bonnu | bonna | bbonno |
| obl. sg. | bonno | bonna | bbonno |
| gen. sg. | bonni | bonne | bonni |
| nom. pl | bonni | bonne | bonna |
| obl. pl. | bbonnu | bbonne | bonna |
| gen. pl. | bonnoro | bonnaro | bonnoro |
Fairly similar to the first, but nominative singular -er > -r- in all other forms, and the genitive plural is a little different.
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | asper | aspra | aspro |
| obl. sg. | aspro | aspra | aspro |
| gen. sg. | aspri | aspre | aspri |
| nom. pl | aspri | aspre | aspra |
| obl. pl. | saspri | saspre | aspra |
| gen. pl. | aspro | asprà | aidrò |
aider, 'other' has an irregular genitive singular:
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | aider | aidra | aidro |
| obl. sg. | aidro | aidra | aidro |
| gen. sg. | aidriu | aidriu | aidriu |
| nom. pl | aidri | aidre | aidra |
| obl. pl. | saidru | saidre | aidra |
| gen. pl. | aidrò | aidrà | aidrò |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | tudu | toda | ttodo |
| obl. sg. | todo | toda | ttodo |
| gen. sg. | toziu | tode | toziu |
| nom. pl | tudi | tode | toda |
| obl. pl. | ttudu | ttode | toda |
| gen. pl. | todoro | todaro | todoro |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | sulu | sola | ssolo |
| obl. sg. | solo | sola | ssolo |
| gen. sg. | sojju | sole | sojju |
| nom. pl | suli | sole | sola |
| obl. pl. | ssulu | ssole | sola |
| gen. pl. | soloro | solaro | soloro |
Second declension
The easy one! Three different endings, and a common paradigm for all genders.
graddi, great, tall, big
| all genders | |
| nom. sg. | graddi |
| obl. sg. | gradde |
| gen. sg. | graddi |
| nom. pl | graddi |
| obl. pl. | graddi |
| gen. pl. | graddio |
atros, 'ghastly'
| all genders | |
| nom. sg. | atros |
| obl. sg. | atroce |
| gen. sg. | atroci |
| nom. pl | atroci |
| obl. pl. | atroci |
| gen. pl. | atrocio |
There are four suppletive forms
bonnu > mejjor, mejori
malu > pejjor, pejori
graddi > majjor, majori
peccinu> mennor, menori
Otherwise, just use mennu + adj (less + ) più + adj (more + adj).
Majjor and mennor coexist with più graddi, più peccinu
You can form an augmentative in -issimu: graddissimu, 'very large', atrocissimu, 'very ghastly'
Last edited by Ares Land on Sun Dec 08, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Oh, sure, no problem
And I'm tempted to borrow your idea of a Florentine with [ki]
(Presumably my timeline still has Southern Romance speakers. They must have been up to something!)
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Possessive adjectives
Voigare has the following possessive adjectives:
miù (my), tù (your), sù (his, her, its, their), noster, voster.
sù handles both singular and plural - loro is sometimes used as a plural possessive, as in Italian, but in the ATL it sounds awfully rustic and gallu, so don't do it:
le amigo sù, 'his friend', 'their friend'
Enclitics
With kinship terms and casa, special enclitic forms of the pronouns are used -- only in the singular, and for the first, second and third persons singular.
pattermù, 'my father', casama, 'my house'
fradertù, 'your brother', sorta, 'your sister'
marisu, 'her husband' (But: 'the husband' is le maridu), mojjersa 'his wife'
By the way, the wife (acc.) => la mojere but 'his wife (acc)' is mojersa.
Oh, and enclitic possessives are a little dated (or Southern Italian), so if la mojjer mia seems easier to handle than mojjerma, go ahead.
Voigare has the following possessive adjectives:
miù (my), tù (your), sù (his, her, its, their), noster, voster.
sù handles both singular and plural - loro is sometimes used as a plural possessive, as in Italian, but in the ATL it sounds awfully rustic and gallu, so don't do it:
le amigo sù, 'his friend', 'their friend'
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | miù | mià | mmiò |
| obl. sg. | miò | mià | mmiò |
| gen. sg. | mei | mie | mei |
| nom. pl | mei | mie | mià |
| obl. pl. | mmiù | mmie | mià |
| gen. pl. | mioro | miaro | mioro |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | tù | tuà | ttuò |
| obl. sg. | tuò | tuà | ttuò |
| gen. sg. | tui | tue | tui |
| nom. pl | tui | tue | tuà |
| obl. pl. | ttù | ttue | tuà |
| gen. pl. | tuoro | tuaro | tuoro |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | sù | suà | ssuò |
| obl. sg. | suò | suà | ssuò |
| gen. sg. | sui | sue | sui |
| nom. pl | sui | sue | suà |
| obl. pl. | ssù | ssue | suà |
| gen. pl. | suoro | suaro | suoro |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | sù | suà | ssuò |
| obl. sg. | suò | suà | ssuò |
| gen. sg. | sui | sue | sui |
| nom. pl | sui | sue | suà |
| obl. pl. | ssù | ssue | suà |
| gen. pl. | suoro | suaro | suoro |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | noster | nostra | nnostro |
| obl. sg. | nostro | nostra | nnostro |
| gen. sg. | nostri | nostre | nostri |
| nom. pl | nostri | nostre | nostra |
| obl. pl. | nnostru | nnostre | nostra |
| gen. pl. | nostrò | nostrà | nostrò |
With kinship terms and casa, special enclitic forms of the pronouns are used -- only in the singular, and for the first, second and third persons singular.
pattermù, 'my father', casama, 'my house'
| masculine | feminine | |
| nom. sg. | patermo | casama |
| obl. sg. | padremo | [b]casama [/b][/cell]|
| gen. sg. | pradrimi | caseme |
| masculine | feminine | |
| nom. sg. | fradertu | sorta |
| obl. sg. | fradreto | sorta |
| gen. sg. | fradriti | sorte |
| masculine | feminine | |
| nom. sg. | marisu | mojjersa |
| obl. sg. | mariso | mojersa |
| gen. sg. | marisi | mojerse |
Oh, and enclitic possessives are a little dated (or Southern Italian), so if la mojjer mia seems easier to handle than mojjerma, go ahead.
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
The definite article
You've seen plenty of definite article, but a synthetic table can't hurt.
Before consonants:
Before vowels
There are just a few extra rules to remember:
(1) i tends to eat a following i:
i 'mbiraduri, 'the emperors'
(2) s is added in the oblique plural to an initial vowel (instead of reduplication):
lu simbiraduri, 'the emperors (oblique)'
(3) But that nothing is added to the neuter singular:
lo ovo , 'the egg', not *lo sovo
(4) And that there's no gemination whatsoever of initial clusters, z or gn:
i zei, lu ziu 'the uncles'
And we're all set.
Indefinite article
Before consonants:
Before vowels:
There are no plural definite articles:
uno stude, a student -> studendi, students
If you're familiar with Romance languages, you might be tempted to use a partitive and say something like **dei studendi. Well, don't. There are dialectal equivalents, but that construction never made it to the standard language.
You've seen plenty of definite article, but a synthetic table can't hurt.
Before consonants:
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | le | la | lo + gemination |
| obl. sg. | lo | la | lo + gemination |
| gen. sg. | i | le | i |
| nom. pl | i | le | la |
| obl. pl. | lu + gemination | le + gemination | la |
| gen. pl. | loro | laro | bonnoro |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | l' | l' | lo |
| obl. sg. | lo | l' | lo |
| gen. sg. | i | le | i |
| nom. pl | i | le | la |
| obl. pl. | lu s + gemination | le s + gemination | la |
| gen. pl. | lor' | lar' | bonnoro |
(1) i tends to eat a following i:
i 'mbiraduri, 'the emperors'
(2) s is added in the oblique plural to an initial vowel (instead of reduplication):
lu simbiraduri, 'the emperors (oblique)'
(3) But that nothing is added to the neuter singular:
lo ovo , 'the egg', not *lo sovo
(4) And that there's no gemination whatsoever of initial clusters, z or gn:
i zei, lu ziu 'the uncles'
And we're all set.
Indefinite article
Before consonants:
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | unu | una | uno + gemination |
| obl. sg. | uno | una | uno + gemination |
| gen. sg. | uniu | uniu | uniu |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | un | un | un |
| obl. sg. | un | un | un |
| gen. sg. | uniu | uniu | uniu |
There are no plural definite articles:
uno stude, a student -> studendi, students
If you're familiar with Romance languages, you might be tempted to use a partitive and say something like **dei studendi. Well, don't. There are dialectal equivalents, but that construction never made it to the standard language.
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Demonstratives
There are three demonstratives in Voigare:
este 'this, close to the speaker':
esse 'this, close to the listener'
quele 'that'
Locatives
The locative adverbs don't really pattern with the adjectives (they don't decline, for instance), but they're related so I might as well cover them now.
There are several different forms, with nuances in usage that aren't always easy to figure out. Roughly, forms in ì tend to be more precise and more literary.
here: cè, quì, quà
there (close to the listener): costì, costà
there: lì, là
There are three demonstratives in Voigare:
este 'this, close to the speaker':
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | este | esta | esto + gemination |
| obl. sg. | esto | esta | esto + gemination |
| gen. sg. | esciu | esciu | esciu |
| nom. pl | esti | este | esta |
| obl. pl. | estu + gemination | este + gemination | esta |
| gen. pl. | estoro | estaro | estoro |
esse 'this, close to the listener'
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | esse | essa | esso + gemination |
| obl. sg. | esso | essa | esto + gemination |
| gen. sg. | esciu | esciu | esciu |
| nom. pl | essi | esse | essa |
| obl. pl. | essu + gemination | esse + gemination | essa |
| gen. pl. | essoro | essaro | essoro |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | quele | quela | quelo + gemination |
| obl. sg. | quelo | quela | quelo + gemination |
| gen. sg. | queju | queju | queju |
| nom. pl | queli | quele | quela |
| obl. pl. | queju + gemination | quele + gemination | quela |
| gen. pl. | queloro | quelaro | queloro |
Locatives
The locative adverbs don't really pattern with the adjectives (they don't decline, for instance), but they're related so I might as well cover them now.
There are several different forms, with nuances in usage that aren't always easy to figure out. Roughly, forms in ì tend to be more precise and more literary.
here: cè, quì, quà
there (close to the listener): costì, costà
there: lì, là
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Personal pronouns
Personal pronouns have kept the nominative, accusative and dative. In addition there are distinct clitic and stressed forms, and a comitation (with me, with you, etc.) as shown below:
There are no distinct comitative for third person pronouns
Reflexives:
Third person (non reflexive) pronouns
Interrogative pronouns
quì, què - who? what?
quali, quale, 'which?', with a specific neuter form.
(The neuter form is falling into disuse, though)
quandu, quando , 'how much?' (watch out! false friend!) has no distinct dative
And the undeclinable quaddo, 'when', como, 'how', obbe, 'where' and perque, 'why?'
Personal pronouns have kept the nominative, accusative and dative. In addition there are distinct clitic and stressed forms, and a comitation (with me, with you, etc.) as shown below:
| 1st. sing. | 1st pl. | 2nd sing. | 2nd. plural | |
| Nominative | jo | noi | tu | voi |
| Long accusative | me | noi | te | voi |
| Clitic accusative | me | nu + gemination | te | vu + gemination |
| Long dative | mi | noi | tebbe | voi |
| Clitic dative | mi | nu + gemination | ti | voi + gemination |
| Comitative | mego | nosco | tego | vosco |
There are no distinct comitative for third person pronouns
Reflexives:
| 1st. sing. | 1st pl. | 2nd sing. | 2nd. plural | 3st sing. and pl. | |
| Long accusative | me | noi | te | voi | se |
| Clitic accusative | me | nu + gemination | te | vu + gemination | se |
| Long dative | mi | noi | tebbe | voi | sebbe |
| Clitic dative | mi | nu + gemination | ti | vu | si |
| Comitative | mego | nosco | tego | vosco | sego |
Third person (non reflexive) pronouns
| masc. sing; | masc. pl. | fem. sing. | fem. plural | neut. sing. | neut. plural. | |
| Nominative | elo | ili | ela | ele + gemination | elo + gemination | ela |
| Long accusative | elo | ilu + gemination | ela | ele + gemination | elo + gemination | ela |
| Clitic accusative | lu + gemination | lu + gemination | la | le + gemination | cè | cè |
| Long dative | ili | ili | ili | ili | ili | ili |
| Clitic dative | i | i | i | i | i | i | [/cell]
Interrogative pronouns
quì, què - who? what?
| masc. sing; | masc. pl. | fem. sing. | fem. plural | neut. sing. | neut. plural. | |
| Nominative | quì | ili | quì | ele + gemination | què + gemination | què + gemination |
| Accusative | què + gemination | [/cell]què + gemination | què + gemination | què + gemination | què + gemination | què + gemination |
| Dative / Genitive | cui / a ccui | cui / a ccui | cui / a ccui | cui / a ccui | cui / a ccui | ili |
| M & F Singular | M & F Plural | Neuter Singular | Neuter Plural | |
| Nominative | quali | quali | quale | quaja |
| Accusative | quale | quali | quale | quaja |
| Dative | quali | quaju | quali | quaju |
quandu, quando , 'how much?' (watch out! false friend!) has no distinct dative
| masc. sing. | masc. plural | fem. sing. | fem. plural | neuter. sing. | neuter plural | [/cell]|
| Nominative | quandu | quandi | quanda | quande | quando + gemination | quanda |
| Oblique | quando | quandu + gemination | quanda | quande + gemination | quando + gemination | quanda |
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Numerals
nullu (zero), unu and duo decline. The rest of the cardinals number decline.
Ordinal numbers decline (like regular first declension adjectives).
After ten...
Quantifiers
A few quantifiers:
algunu: someone, no one
qualquì, qualquè, some (2nd declension adjective)
qualqu'unu, someone (like unu)
qualcosasomething (1st declension feminine noun)
nullu; no (see above, like unu)
nulla: nothing (1st declension femine noun)
niendi, niende: nothing (3rd declension noun)
niunu: nobody (like unu)
tudu, all (2nd declension masculine noun)
omni, omne, every (2nd declension adjective)
cadunu, every one (like unu)
omnunu, every one (like unu)
moidu, much, many (1st declension adjective)
nullu (zero), unu and duo decline. The rest of the cardinals number decline.
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | nullu | nulla | nullo + gemination |
| obl. sg. | nullo | nulla | nullo + gemination |
| gen. sg. | nujju | nujju | nujju |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | unu | una | uno + gemination |
| obl. sg. | uno | una | uno + gemination |
| gen. sg. | uniu | uniu | uniu |
| masculine | feminine | neuter | |
| nom. sg. | duo | dua | duo + gemination |
| obl. sg. | duo | dua | duo + gemination |
| gen. sg. | duoro | duaro | duoro |
Ordinal numbers decline (like regular first declension adjectives).
| cardinal | nullu, nulla | unu, una | duo, dua | trei | quattro | cenque | sei | sette | otto | nove | decce |
| ordinal | nujju | primu | segoddo | terziu | quartu | quindu | sestu | settiu | ottavu | nunu | diegiu |
| ordinal | uddece | dodecce | tredecce | quattordecce | quindecce | sedecce | decesette | deciotto | decinove | vendi | venduno, venduna | vendiduo, vendidue | venditrei | trenda | quadrenda | cingenda | sessenda | settenda | ottenda | nonenda | cendo, mille |
| cardinal | uddiegiu | dodiegiu | trediegiu | quattordiegiu | quindiegiu | sediegiu | decesettiu | deciottavu | decinunu | vicemmu | venduniu | vendiduorp, | venditrei | tricemmu | quadremmu | cingemmu | sessemmu | settemmu | ottemmu | nonemmu | cedemmu, millemmu |
A few quantifiers:
algunu: someone, no one
qualquì, qualquè, some (2nd declension adjective)
qualqu'unu, someone (like unu)
qualcosasomething (1st declension feminine noun)
nullu; no (see above, like unu)
nulla: nothing (1st declension femine noun)
niendi, niende: nothing (3rd declension noun)
niunu: nobody (like unu)
tudu, all (2nd declension masculine noun)
omni, omne, every (2nd declension adjective)
cadunu, every one (like unu)
omnunu, every one (like unu)
moidu, much, many (1st declension adjective)
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Prepositions followed by the accusatives
Some of these prepositions trigger gemination, or assimilation, and assimilate with a following definite article. $
These are:
de, from, about
Before consonants:
Before vowels:
a, to, at
Before vowels:
da from, by, since
en, in assimilates to a following consonant:
en + Roma : er Roma, 'in Rome'
but voiceless stops are voiced instead:
en + Tolosa: en Dolosa, 'in Toulouse'
and voiced stops are geminated, while final n is dropped:
e Ggades, 'in Cadix'
Before vowels:
The same occurs with con, 'with'
Before vowels:
su, on, over
Before vowels
Other prepositions, such as frà (between, among), trà (in), per (for, by), ender (between) and others don't
Prepositions followed by the genitive
More on these later. For now I'll just say that they typically trigger no gemination, or assimilation:
accasa + GEN (at someone), accasa fradrimi 'at my brother's house', en gima i torri, 'at the top of the tower'
And I believe we're finally done with nominal morphology! (Well, except for derivational morphology)
Some of these prepositions trigger gemination, or assimilation, and assimilate with a following definite article. $
These are:
de, from, about
Before consonants:
| singular | plural | |
| masculine / neuter | de | de |
| masculine / neuter | dello | dellu + gemination |
| feminine | della | delle + gemination |
| singular | plural | |
| indefinite | d' | d' |
| masculine / neuter | del' | dellu + s |
| feminine | del' | delle + s |
| singular | plural | |
| simple | a + gemination | a + gemination |
| masculine / neuter | allo | allu + gemination |
| feminine | alla | alle + gemination |
| singular | plural | |
| simple | a + gemination | a |
| masculine / neuter | all' | allu + s |
| feminine | all' | alle + s |
| singular | plural | |
| simple | da + gemination | da + gemination |
| masculine / neuter | dallo | dallu + gemination |
| feminine | dalla | dalle + gemination |
| singular | plural | |
| simple | da + gemination | da |
| masculine / neuter | dall' | dallu + s |
| feminine | dall' | dalle + s |
en, in assimilates to a following consonant:
en + Roma : er Roma, 'in Rome'
but voiceless stops are voiced instead:
en + Tolosa: en Dolosa, 'in Toulouse'
and voiced stops are geminated, while final n is dropped:
e Ggades, 'in Cadix'
| singular | plural | |
| simple | en + assimilation | en + assimilation |
| masculine / neuter | ello | ellu + gemination |
| feminine | ella | elle + gemination |
| singular | plural | |
| simple | en | en |
| masculine / neuter | ell' | ellu + s |
| feminine | ell' | elle + s |
| singular | plural | |
| simple | co + assimilation | co + assimilation |
| masculine / neuter | collo | collu + gemination |
| feminine | colla | colle + gemination |
| singular | plural | |
| simple | con | con |
| masculine / neuter | coll' | collu + s |
| feminine | coll' | colle + s |
su, on, over
| singular | plural | |
| simple | su + gemination | su + gemination |
| masculine / neuter | sullo | sullu gemination] |
| feminine | sulla | sulle + gemination |
| singular | plural | |
| simple | su + s[/] | su + s |
| masculine / neuter | sull' | sullu + gemination |
| feminine | sull' | sulle + gemination |
Prepositions followed by the genitive
More on these later. For now I'll just say that they typically trigger no gemination, or assimilation:
accasa + GEN (at someone), accasa fradrimi 'at my brother's house', en gima i torri, 'at the top of the tower'
And I believe we're finally done with nominal morphology! (Well, except for derivational morphology)
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
Verbs
Let's begin with fia, to be:
That looks fairly standard for Romance; but some forms seem to be missing: there's no infinitive, no conditional and no future.
What happened?
In fact Voigari followed Greek and replaced the infinitive with the subjunctive.
Volo què fia un'artista , I want to be an artist.
The citation form is the third person subjunctive, fia
The future was replaced with the subjunctive, introduced with a particle vo + gemination, again under Greek influence.
vo ffia un'artista, I will be an artist.
Finally, the conditional was replaced with the subjunctive as well:
Si non fia le Cesar, fia un'artista. If I were not Cesar, I would be an artist.
The subjunctive present, by the way, is from fiō 'I become', as in Eastern Romance.
The present participle was reworked from the gerund, but Medieval Voigare had fie or sta from past participles.
Oh, and the usual Romance analytic verb forms do exist, but I'll cover these later on.
abbia, to have
A few notes: whenever it's identical to the 3SG, the 1SG vowel was replaced by -o. In Italian this happened in the indicative, but Voigare extended that ending to the subjunctive (probably on account of the subjunctive being more common.)
On the third person plural:
Sound change made sure that the third person plural was identical to the first person singular pretty much everywhere except in the remote past.
As in Italian, 'to be' 1SG *son > *sono. Basically, an -o was added to mark 1SG.
But... As 3PL=1SG consistently, "they are" changed from *so to sono, 'they are' in Old Romanescu. But! It didn't stop there. The -no clitic proved very convenient and was extended as a 3PL marker in all verbs.
So far this mirrors Italian almost exactly, except that -no wasn't added after -ro (3PL remote past)
But the clitic -no was unstressed, which led to the loss of the final vowel in four-syllable forms, later generalized to all verb forms. So -n became the 3PL marker. This was finally extended to the verb 'to be'; so that now sono > I am, son > they are.
son certainly looks like a regular descendant of Latin sunt, but it's really the product of a convoluted series of analogies.
Let's begin with fia, to be:
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | |
| jo | sono | fui | erro | fio | fosso | - |
| tu | ei | fosti | erre | fie | fossi | fie |
| elle, ella | e | fo | erra | fia | fosse | fiano |
| noi | sommu | fommu | iramu | fiamu | fossemu | fiamu |
| voi | esti | fosti | iradi | fiadi | fossedi | fiadi |
| elli | son | forro | erra | fian | fossen | fian |
| Participle | |
| Past | fiedu |
| Present | fieddu |
That looks fairly standard for Romance; but some forms seem to be missing: there's no infinitive, no conditional and no future.
What happened?
In fact Voigari followed Greek and replaced the infinitive with the subjunctive.
Volo què fia un'artista , I want to be an artist.
The citation form is the third person subjunctive, fia
The future was replaced with the subjunctive, introduced with a particle vo + gemination, again under Greek influence.
vo ffia un'artista, I will be an artist.
Finally, the conditional was replaced with the subjunctive as well:
Si non fia le Cesar, fia un'artista. If I were not Cesar, I would be an artist.
The subjunctive present, by the way, is from fiō 'I become', as in Eastern Romance.
The present participle was reworked from the gerund, but Medieval Voigare had fie or sta from past participles.
Oh, and the usual Romance analytic verb forms do exist, but I'll cover these later on.
abbia, to have
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | |
| jo | ajo | abbi | avéo | abbio | avesso | - |
| tu | ai | avisti | avé | abbie | avessi | abbie |
| elle, ella | ave | abbe | avéa | abbia | avesse | abbia |
| noi | avemu | abbimu | aviamu | aviamu | avessimu | aviamu |
| voi | avedi | abbidi | aviadi | aviadi | avessidi | aviadi |
| elli | aven | avuero | avian | abbiano | avessen | abbian |
| Participle | |
| Past | avudu |
| Present | aveddu |
A few notes: whenever it's identical to the 3SG, the 1SG vowel was replaced by -o. In Italian this happened in the indicative, but Voigare extended that ending to the subjunctive (probably on account of the subjunctive being more common.)
On the third person plural:
Sound change made sure that the third person plural was identical to the first person singular pretty much everywhere except in the remote past.
As in Italian, 'to be' 1SG *son > *sono. Basically, an -o was added to mark 1SG.
But... As 3PL=1SG consistently, "they are" changed from *so to sono, 'they are' in Old Romanescu. But! It didn't stop there. The -no clitic proved very convenient and was extended as a 3PL marker in all verbs.
So far this mirrors Italian almost exactly, except that -no wasn't added after -ro (3PL remote past)
But the clitic -no was unstressed, which led to the loss of the final vowel in four-syllable forms, later generalized to all verb forms. So -n became the 3PL marker. This was finally extended to the verb 'to be'; so that now sono > I am, son > they are.
son certainly looks like a regular descendant of Latin sunt, but it's really the product of a convoluted series of analogies.
Last edited by Ares Land on Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:26 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: L'empieru ne se finì mai : perque piore?
I'll deal with the commonest verbs first, before moving on to the regular ones.
Here's va, to go
va continues part of Latin īre
And as any degorrio could tell you, it's Romane jide a ccasa sua, not *Romani vono casa!
ste, 'to stand, to be, to remain'
de, to give
faccia, to do retained longer forms than in Italian:
posse, 'can, be able to'
vojja, 'to want'
Here's va, to go
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | |
| jo | vo | ji | jo | vo | jisso | - |
| tu | vai | jisti | je | vai | jissi | vai |
| elle, ella | va | je | ja | va | jisse | va |
| noi | jimu | jimu | jiamu | jamu | jissemu | jamu |
| voi | jidi | jisti | jiadi | jadi | jissedi | jide |
| elli | von | jero | jan | van | jissen | van |
| Participle | |
| Past | jidu |
| Present | joddu |
And as any degorrio could tell you, it's Romane jide a ccasa sua, not *Romani vono casa!
ste, 'to stand, to be, to remain'
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | |
| jo | sto | stetti | stao | stio | stesso | - |
| tu | stai | stidisti | stavi | sti | stessi | stei |
| elle, ella | sta | stette | stava | ste | stesse | sta |
| noi | stamu | stemmu | stavamu | stemu | stessimu | stemu |
| voi | stadi | stesti | stavadi | stedi | stessidi | stade |
| elli | stan | stedero | stavan | sten | stessen | sten |
| Participle | |
| Past | stadu |
| Present | staddu |
de, to give
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | |
| jo | do | dei | davo | dio | desso | - |
| tu | dai | deisti | dave | dei | dessi | dei |
| elle, ella | da | de | dava | de | desse | de |
| noi | dammu | demmu | davamu | demu | dessimu | demu |
| voi | datti | deisti | davadi | dedi | dessidi | dedi |
| elli | don | dero | davan | den | dessen | den |
| Participle | |
| Past | dadu |
| Present | daddu |
faccia, to do retained longer forms than in Italian:
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | ||
| jo | faccio | fici | facéo | faccio | fecesso | - | |
| tu | facci | ficisti | facé | faccie | fecessi | fa | |
| elle, ella | facce | fece | facéa | faccia | fecesse | faccia | |
| noi | famu | fecemmu | faciamu | faciamu | fecessemu | faciamu | |
| voi | fatti | fecesti | facevadi | faciadi | fecessedi | fatte | |
| elli | faccion | fecero | facevan | faccian | fecessen | faccian |
| Participle | |
| Past | fattu |
| Present | faceddu |
posse, 'can, be able to'
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | |
| jo | posso | pudi | podéo | posso | podesse | - |
| tu | poi | podesti | podé | possi | podessi | - |
| elle, ella | po | pudu | podéva | posse | podesse | - |
| noi | possummu | poduimu | podiamu | possimu | podessimu | - |
| voi | podesti | podusti | podiadi | possidi | podessidi | - |
| elli | posson | poduero | podian | possen | podessen | - |
| Participle | |
| Past | pottedu |
| Present | potteddu |
vojja, 'to want'
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | |
| jo | vojjo | voli | voléo | vojjo | volesse | vojjo |
| tu | voli | volisti | volé | vojje | volessi | vojje |
| elle, ella | vole | vole | voléa | vojja | volesse | vojja |
| noi | volimu | volimu | voliamu | vojjamu | volessimu | vojjamu |
| voi | volidi | volesti | voliadi | vojjadi | volessidi | vojjadi |
| elli | vojjon | volero | voléan | vojjan | volessen | vojjan |
| Participle | |
| Past | voludu |
| Present | voleddu |
Last edited by Ares Land on Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: L'empieru non se finio mai : perque piore?
Time for some regular verbs!
1st conjugation -- with a subjunctive in -e
ame, to love
2nd conjugation -- subjunctive in -a
creda, to believe
3rd conjugation -- subjunctive in -ia
dormia, to sleep
4th conjugation -- subjunctive in -isca
Fairly common in Romance, this is really 3rd conjugation with an inchoative -sc- intruding. These rate a separate conjugation in Voigare.
finisca, to end
Vowels
Regular verbs are probably the most confusing part of Voigari, because they work pretty much as in Standard Italian, except that patterns were generalized differently. (When I start learning Italian seriously again, I'll be in deep trouble...)
1st conjugation -- with a subjunctive in -e
ame, to love
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | - | |
| jo | amo | amai | amavo | ame | amasso | ||
| tu | ame | amasti | amave | ami | amassi | ama | |
| elle, ella | ama | amau | amava | ame | amasse | ame | |
| noi | amamu | amammu | amavamu | amimu | amassimu | amimu | |
| voi | amadi | amasti | amavadi | amidi | amassidi | amade | |
| elli | aman | amaro | amavan | amen | amassen | amen |
| Participle | |||
| Past | amadu | ||
| Present | amaddu |
creda, to believe
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | - | |
| jo | credo | credi | credéo | credo | credesso | ||
| tu | credi | credisti | credé | crede | credessi | crede | |
| elle, ella | crede | credio | credéa | creda | credesse | creda | |
| noi | credimu | credemmu | crediamu | credamu | credessimu | credamu | |
| voi | credidi | credesti | crediadi | credadi | credessidi | credede | |
| elli | credon | credero | credéan | credan | credessen | credan |
| Participle | |||
| Past | credudu | ||
| Present | crededdu |
dormia, to sleep
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | - | |
| jo | dormo | dormi | dormio | dormio | dormisso | ||
| tu | dormi | dormisti | dormie | dormie | dormissi | dormi | |
| elle, ella | dorme | dormio | dormia | dormia | dormisse | dormia | |
| noi | dormimu | dormimu | dormiamu | dormiamu | dormissimu | dormiamu | |
| voi | dormidi | dormisti | dormiadi | dormiadi | dormissidi | dormide | |
| elli | dormon | dormiro | dormian | dormian | dormissen | dormian |
| Participle | |||
| Past | dormidu | ||
| Present | dormiddu |
Fairly common in Romance, this is really 3rd conjugation with an inchoative -sc- intruding. These rate a separate conjugation in Voigare.
finisca, to end
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | - | |
| jo | finisco | fini | finio | finisco | finisso | ||
| tu | finisci | finisti | finie | finisce | finissi | finisce | |
| elle, ella | finisce | finio | finia | finisca | finisse | finisca | |
| noi | finimmu | finimu | finiamu | finiscamu | finissimu | finiscamu | |
| voi | finisti | finisti | finiadi | finiscadi | finissidi | finiste | |
| elli | finiscon | finiro | finivan | finiscan | finissen | finiscan |
| Participle | |||
| Past | finidu | ||
| Present | finisceddu |
Last edited by Ares Land on Sat Mar 21, 2020 6:12 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Voigari: an alternate history Romance language. (NP: irregular verbs)
Hey, it's been a while. Let's celebrate the comeback of this thread with something deeply boring: irregular verbs!
We've covered several of these already. But the bad news is, Voigari has lots of irregular verbs... This post aims to make some sense of them.
(Oh, by the way, I made some changes in earlier posts. Verb forms have changed a little. More importantly, the language is now Voigari, not Voigare)
Conjugation class
1st and 4th conjugation verbs are all regular. That leaves us with second and third conjugation verb. That's good news: both (relatively) restriced and (mostly) unproductive classes.
We'll go through the different irregularity patterns..;
2nd conjugation with root alternation.
Here, the stem simply alternate between two variants. For instance, bebba, 'to drink' alternates between bebb- and bev- (and otherwise uses regular second conjugation endings.)
The alternate stem in bev- is seen in the first and second person plural in the present, the second person singular and the plural in the remote past, all persons of the imperfect, the subjunctive present plurals and the subjunctive past.
Third conjugation irregular verbs
Some of these follow the same pattern as above, for instance:
jo temmio, noi temimu
But often, root alternation is caused by palatization triggered by the stem vowel -i-
For instance, with oggia,'to hear'
The palatal stem (here oggi-) is seen in the first person singular and third person plural, the imperfect, the subjunctive present and the second person imperatives. Everything else uses the odi- stem.
Another type of irregularity is found in the third conjugation, combining, root alternation and palatization. As with, for instance, sabbia, 'to know'
We see the same alternation between palatized stem saj- and non-palatized sabi; except that the second and third person singular, in the present, use the palatized stem saj-
Metaphony.
Oh, final -i may trigger a vowel change in the second person singular present and imperative:
udi, you hear, siedi, you sit;
Irregular perfect stem
This may appear in both second and third different verbs, using a different stem for the perfect. (If you're familiar with Romance or Latin, this won't be much of a surprise)
As an example, let's review quera, to ask for, to look for.
The indicative remote past, the past subjunctive and the past participle all use an alternate stem ques-, everything else uses quer-
The past participle may be irregular as well, cf. codduga, to lead
The stems coddug-, codduss- alternate, but the past participle is an unexpected coddottu.
Principal parts
In effect, what do we need to predict all forms of an irregular verbs?
Conventionally, the following principal parts are used:
The easy way out
As I said earlier, there are a lot of irregular verbs, and as we've seen, the irregularities are sort of confusing. But the patterns sort of grow on you after a while. The easy way out, really, is to memorize the most common irregular verbs, of which I listed a selection below (plus the examples above!)
The great thing is, verbs that are related conjugate in the same way. So basically, if you're confronted with the unfamiliar verb resorga, you can confidently state that its past participle is resorrettu , because you already know sorga. Or that 'I maintained' is mandenni, (cf. tenni, I held)
chioda, to close: chiodo, chiudi, chiodimu, chiosi, chiusu
conceda, to grant: concedo, concedi, concedimu, concessi, concessu
codduga, to lead: coddugo, coddugi, coddugimu, coddussi, coddottu
cresca, to grow: cresco, cresci, crescimu, crei, criedu
cocca, to cook: cocco, cocci, cogimu, cossi, cottu
diga, to say: digo, digi, digimu, dissi, dittu
dirga, to lead, to direct: dirgo, dirgi, dirgimmu, diressi, direttu
discuda, to discuss: discudo, discudi, discudimu, discussi, discussu
dojja, to suffer: dojjo, dolli, dolemu, dolli, doludu
debia, to have to, to owe: debio, dievi, devimu, debbv, dettu
exiga to demand: exigo, exigi, exigimu, exigi, exattu or exigudu
expella, to expel: expello, expelli, expelliarmus... OK, just kidding! expellimu, expulli, expulsu
exprema, to express: expremo, expremi, expremimu, expressi, expressu
sprema, to squeeze: spremo, soremi, spremimu, spressi, spressu
fodda, to melt: foddo, foddi, foddimu, fudi, fusu
gogio, to enjoy: gogio, gudi, godimu, godì, godudu
legga, to read: leggo, leghi, leghimu, liegì, lettu
metta, to put: metto, metti, mettimu, misì, messu
morria, to die: morrio, morri, morimu, morì, mortu
mobbia, to move: mobbio, mobbi, movimu, muovì, muodu
nasca, to be born nasco, nasci, nascimu, nascì, nadu
noccia, to do harm noccio, nocci, nocimu, occì, nottu
offria, to offer offrio, offri, offrimu, offersì, offertu
paria, to seem, to appear pario, pari, parimu, parvì, parudu
piaggia to please piaggio, piaggi, piagimu, piacquì,, piaggiudu
piagga to bemoan piaggo, piaggi, piaggimu, piansì, piantu
porga to extend porgo, porgi, porgimu, poriessì, portu
pona to put pono, puoni, ponimu, possì, postu
preddoto take preddo, preddi, preddimu, priesì, priesu
redda, to pay back reddo, reddi, reddimu, riesì, riesu
remagna, to stay, to remain remagno, remanni, remanimu, remassì, remassu
resoiva, to solve, to resolve resoivo, resoivi,resoivimu, resoivì, resoludu
romba, to break rombo, rombi, rombimu, rubì, rottu
sajja, to jump sajjo, sali, salimu, sallì, saidu
scinda, to divide {b]sceddo, sceddi, sceddimu, sceddì, scessu[/b]
scriva, to write scrivo, scrivi, screvimu, scrissì, scrittu
sorga, to rise, to appear suddenly, sorgo, sorgi, sorgimu, sorriesì, sorettu
tegna, to hold: tegno, tenni, tenimu, tenì, tenudu
tragga, to draw: traggo, traggi, tragimu, trassì, trattu
veggia, to see: veggio, veddi, vedimu, viedì, visu
viva, to live: vivo,vivi, vivimu, vissì, vissudu
voiva, to change: voivo, voivi, voivimu, voivì, voludu
We've covered several of these already. But the bad news is, Voigari has lots of irregular verbs... This post aims to make some sense of them.
(Oh, by the way, I made some changes in earlier posts. Verb forms have changed a little. More importantly, the language is now Voigari, not Voigare)
Conjugation class
1st and 4th conjugation verbs are all regular. That leaves us with second and third conjugation verb. That's good news: both (relatively) restriced and (mostly) unproductive classes.
We'll go through the different irregularity patterns..;
2nd conjugation with root alternation.
Here, the stem simply alternate between two variants. For instance, bebba, 'to drink' alternates between bebb- and bev- (and otherwise uses regular second conjugation endings.)
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | ||
| jo | bebbo | bebbì | bevèo | bebbo | bevesso | ||
| tu | bebbi | bevesti | bevèi | bebbe | bevessi | bebbe | |
| elle, ella | bebbe | bebbìo | bevèa | bebba | bevesse | bebba | |
| noi | bevemo | bevimu | beviamu | bevamu | bevessimu | bevamu | |
| voi | bevedi | bevesti | beviadi | bevadi | bevessidi | bevede | |
| elli | bebbon | bevero | bevian | bebban | bevessen | bebban |
| Participle | |||
| Past | bevidu | ||
| Present | beveddu |
The alternate stem in bev- is seen in the first and second person plural in the present, the second person singular and the plural in the remote past, all persons of the imperfect, the subjunctive present plurals and the subjunctive past.
Third conjugation irregular verbs
Some of these follow the same pattern as above, for instance:
jo temmio, noi temimu
But often, root alternation is caused by palatization triggered by the stem vowel -i-
For instance, with oggia,'to hear'
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | ||
| jo | oggio | odì | oggèo | oggio | odisso | ||
| tu | udi | odisti | oggèi | oggie | odussi | udi | |
| elle, ella | ode | odìo | oggèa | oggia | odisse | oggia | |
| noi | odimu | odimu | oggiamu | oggiamu | odissiemu | oggiamu | |
| voi | odidi | odisti | oggiadi | oggiadi | odissiedi | odide | |
| elli | oggion | odiero | oggèan | oggian | odissen | oggian |
| Participle | |||
| Past | odidu | ||
| Present | oggiedu |
The palatal stem (here oggi-) is seen in the first person singular and third person plural, the imperfect, the subjunctive present and the second person imperatives. Everything else uses the odi- stem.
Another type of irregularity is found in the third conjugation, combining, root alternation and palatization. As with, for instance, sabbia, 'to know'
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Subjunctive | Past subjunctive | Imperative | ||
| jo | sajo | sabì | sajèo | sajo | sabisso | ||
| tu | saji | sabisti | sajèi | saje | sabissi | sappe | |
| elle, ella | saje | sabìo | sajèa | saja | sabisse | saja | |
| noi | sabimu | sabimu | sajamu | sajamu | sabissiemu | sajamu | |
| voi | sabidi | sabidi | sajadi | sajadi | sabissiedi | sappede | |
| elli | sajon | sabiero | sajan | sajan | sabissen | sajan |
| Participle | |||
| Past | sabudu | ||
| Present | sajeddu |
We see the same alternation between palatized stem saj- and non-palatized sabi; except that the second and third person singular, in the present, use the palatized stem saj-
Metaphony.
Oh, final -i may trigger a vowel change in the second person singular present and imperative:
udi, you hear, siedi, you sit;
Irregular perfect stem
This may appear in both second and third different verbs, using a different stem for the perfect. (If you're familiar with Romance or Latin, this won't be much of a surprise)
As an example, let's review quera, to ask for, to look for.
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Pas subjunctive | Imperative | ||
| jo | quero | quesì | queréo | quero | quesisso | ||
| tu | queri | quesisti | queré | quere | quesissi | quere | |
| ella, elle | quere | quesìo | queréa | quera | quesisse | quera | |
| noi | querimu | quesemmu | quereamu | queramu | quesissimu | queramu | |
| voi | queridi | quesesti | quereadi | queradi | quesissidi | querede | |
| elli | queron | quesiro | queréan | queran | quesissen | queran |
| Participle | |||
| Present | quereddu | ||
| Past | quesidu |
The past participle may be irregular as well, cf. codduga, to lead
| Present | Remote past | Imperfect | Present subjunctive | Pas subjunctive | Imperative | ||
| jo | coddugo | coddussì | coddugéo | coddugo | coddussisso | ||
| tu | coddugi | coddussisti | coddugé | codduge | coddussissi | codduge | |
| ella, elle | coddugge | coddussÌo | coddugéa | codduga | coddussisse | codduga | |
| noi | coddugimu | coddussemmu | coddugiamu | coddugamu | coddusissimu | queramu | |
| voi | coddugedi | codussesti | coddugiadi | coddugadi | codusissidi | coddugadi | |
| elli | coddugon | codussero | coddugéan | coddugan | coddussissen | coddugan |
| Participle | |||
| Present | coddugeddu | ||
| Past | coddottu |
Principal parts
In effect, what do we need to predict all forms of an irregular verbs?
Conventionally, the following principal parts are used:
- Third person subjunctive. (Serves as an infinitve, predicts conjugation, also exhibits palatal alternation, if any)
- First person singular present.
- Second person singular present. (These two cover metaphony and palatal alternation)
- First person plural present. (For root alternation)
- First person singular, remote past. (When past tenses use a different stem)
- ]Past participle (Well, heck. Sometimes, it's just not predictable)
The easy way out
As I said earlier, there are a lot of irregular verbs, and as we've seen, the irregularities are sort of confusing. But the patterns sort of grow on you after a while. The easy way out, really, is to memorize the most common irregular verbs, of which I listed a selection below (plus the examples above!)
The great thing is, verbs that are related conjugate in the same way. So basically, if you're confronted with the unfamiliar verb resorga, you can confidently state that its past participle is resorrettu , because you already know sorga. Or that 'I maintained' is mandenni, (cf. tenni, I held)
chioda, to close: chiodo, chiudi, chiodimu, chiosi, chiusu
conceda, to grant: concedo, concedi, concedimu, concessi, concessu
codduga, to lead: coddugo, coddugi, coddugimu, coddussi, coddottu
cresca, to grow: cresco, cresci, crescimu, crei, criedu
cocca, to cook: cocco, cocci, cogimu, cossi, cottu
diga, to say: digo, digi, digimu, dissi, dittu
dirga, to lead, to direct: dirgo, dirgi, dirgimmu, diressi, direttu
discuda, to discuss: discudo, discudi, discudimu, discussi, discussu
dojja, to suffer: dojjo, dolli, dolemu, dolli, doludu
debia, to have to, to owe: debio, dievi, devimu, debbv, dettu
exiga to demand: exigo, exigi, exigimu, exigi, exattu or exigudu
expella, to expel: expello, expelli, expelliarmus... OK, just kidding! expellimu, expulli, expulsu
exprema, to express: expremo, expremi, expremimu, expressi, expressu
sprema, to squeeze: spremo, soremi, spremimu, spressi, spressu
fodda, to melt: foddo, foddi, foddimu, fudi, fusu
gogio, to enjoy: gogio, gudi, godimu, godì, godudu
legga, to read: leggo, leghi, leghimu, liegì, lettu
metta, to put: metto, metti, mettimu, misì, messu
morria, to die: morrio, morri, morimu, morì, mortu
mobbia, to move: mobbio, mobbi, movimu, muovì, muodu
nasca, to be born nasco, nasci, nascimu, nascì, nadu
noccia, to do harm noccio, nocci, nocimu, occì, nottu
offria, to offer offrio, offri, offrimu, offersì, offertu
paria, to seem, to appear pario, pari, parimu, parvì, parudu
piaggia to please piaggio, piaggi, piagimu, piacquì,, piaggiudu
piagga to bemoan piaggo, piaggi, piaggimu, piansì, piantu
porga to extend porgo, porgi, porgimu, poriessì, portu
pona to put pono, puoni, ponimu, possì, postu
preddoto take preddo, preddi, preddimu, priesì, priesu
redda, to pay back reddo, reddi, reddimu, riesì, riesu
remagna, to stay, to remain remagno, remanni, remanimu, remassì, remassu
resoiva, to solve, to resolve resoivo, resoivi,resoivimu, resoivì, resoludu
romba, to break rombo, rombi, rombimu, rubì, rottu
sajja, to jump sajjo, sali, salimu, sallì, saidu
scinda, to divide {b]sceddo, sceddi, sceddimu, sceddì, scessu[/b]
scriva, to write scrivo, scrivi, screvimu, scrissì, scrittu
sorga, to rise, to appear suddenly, sorgo, sorgi, sorgimu, sorriesì, sorettu
tegna, to hold: tegno, tenni, tenimu, tenì, tenudu
tragga, to draw: traggo, traggi, tragimu, trassì, trattu
veggia, to see: veggio, veddi, vedimu, viedì, visu
viva, to live: vivo,vivi, vivimu, vissì, vissudu
voiva, to change: voivo, voivi, voivimu, voivì, voludu
Re: Voigari: an alternate history Romance language. (NP: irregular verbs)
Participal and infinitive forms.
The infinitive gradually fell into disuse, replaced by the subjunctive.
But some nominalizations are based on the infinitive:
Actually, in most vernaculars, the infinitive never quite disappeared, lead to its reintroduction (even, occasionally, in more literary registers). There are two different constructions, both based on the thirs person singular present:
- prepostion 'a' + 3SG present + -r Either adding -r: magna 'he/she eats' > a magnar
- Or moving stress to the last syllable > magnà
The second one is the most widespread.
Jidu mmagnimu 'We're going to eat' > Jidu a mmagnà
vojjo ssajo "I want to know' > Vojjo a ssajè
You'll note that the etymological connection with the Latin infinitive sapere is lost. The epected Vojjo a sabere or Vojjo a sabè are dialectal.
Verbal noun and verbal adjectives
The Latin present participle survives as a nominalization, forming a verbal noun or adjective:
ame, to love > l'amma, lo amande, the lover
creda, to believe > le crede, lo credende, the believer
creda > pode, podende, powerful.
There's often quite a semantic shift as well:
serria, to serve > le serrie, lo serriende, the sergeant
abbia, to have > abbe, avende, wealthy
The present participle
Voigari essentially conflated the morphologically similar Latin gerund and gerundive, which became the present participle in
-ddu. ama > amaddu, 'loving', as listed in the conjugation tables above.
It behaves as a regular first declension adjective: un pader amaddu, un mader amadda, a loving father, a loving mother, lo fferro ardeddo, buring iron.
The past participle
Not much to say here, it derives from the Latin past participle, with the assorted irregularities we've reviewed previously. Unlike Latin verbs, though, all Voigari verbs have a past participle. It declines like a regular first declension noun.
Un ascenu fatigadu, a tired donkey, una vacca fatigada, a tired cow,
fferro fabregado, forged iron.
The infinitive gradually fell into disuse, replaced by the subjunctive.
But some nominalizations are based on the infinitive:
- magne, to eat > le magnare, foodstuffs
- bebba, to drink > le bevere, the beverage
- sabbia, to know > le sabere, knownledge
- sabbia, to know > le sabere, knownledge
- posse > le podere, power
Actually, in most vernaculars, the infinitive never quite disappeared, lead to its reintroduction (even, occasionally, in more literary registers). There are two different constructions, both based on the thirs person singular present:
- prepostion 'a' + 3SG present + -r Either adding -r: magna 'he/she eats' > a magnar
- Or moving stress to the last syllable > magnà
The second one is the most widespread.
Jidu mmagnimu 'We're going to eat' > Jidu a mmagnà
vojjo ssajo "I want to know' > Vojjo a ssajè
You'll note that the etymological connection with the Latin infinitive sapere is lost. The epected Vojjo a sabere or Vojjo a sabè are dialectal.
Verbal noun and verbal adjectives
The Latin present participle survives as a nominalization, forming a verbal noun or adjective:
ame, to love > l'amma, lo amande, the lover
creda, to believe > le crede, lo credende, the believer
creda > pode, podende, powerful.
There's often quite a semantic shift as well:
serria, to serve > le serrie, lo serriende, the sergeant
abbia, to have > abbe, avende, wealthy
The present participle
Voigari essentially conflated the morphologically similar Latin gerund and gerundive, which became the present participle in
-ddu. ama > amaddu, 'loving', as listed in the conjugation tables above.
It behaves as a regular first declension adjective: un pader amaddu, un mader amadda, a loving father, a loving mother, lo fferro ardeddo, buring iron.
The past participle
Not much to say here, it derives from the Latin past participle, with the assorted irregularities we've reviewed previously. Unlike Latin verbs, though, all Voigari verbs have a past participle. It declines like a regular first declension noun.
Un ascenu fatigadu, a tired donkey, una vacca fatigada, a tired cow,
fferro fabregado, forged iron.
Last edited by Ares Land on Tue Mar 24, 2020 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.