Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:41 am**

⟨m n ng hm hn hng⟩ /m n ŋ m̥ n̥ ŋ̊/
⟨p pp b bb t tt d c cc j k kk g⟩ /p pː~pʼ b ɓ t tː~tʼ d c cː~cʼ ɟ k kʼ g/ (unlike the rest of tense stop, <kk> is always ejective)
⟨l ł ƛ dƛ ƛʼ⟩ /l ɬ tɬ dɮ tɬʼ/
⟨f s sh th x⟩ /f s ʃ θ x/
<r y wh> /r j */
⟨a â aa ɛ e ə i ii o ô u û uu⟩ /a a˞ aː ɛ eː ə i iː o o˞ u ɚ uː/

*= wh is a diaphoneme with different realization each dialect. It's either pronounced as /w/, /f/, or /x/, depending on the dialect used. The standard pronunciation is /x/.

Sample text:

⟨bbɛpp łat kûhmo thiin ôƛehngkkə â whaa məpon abboshə ûsəl gaj thigdƛemet ong⟩ /ɓɛpʼ ɬat kɚm̥o o˞tɬeːŋ̊kʼə a˞ xaː məpon aɓoʃə ɚsəl gaɟ θigdɮeːmeːt oŋ/
(There is no ê in orthography section, but it's present in the sample text)

Also for old challenge: (I remembered having posted this, but it's lost)
m n mm nn /m n m' n'/
b p pp d t tt g k kk /b p p' d t t' g k k'/
f s z h /fː s~z tsʼ h/
v w l r /β ɣ l r/

a e i o u /a e i o u/

/o/ and /u/ are allophone, where /o/ appears in closed syllable or before tensed consonant.

Posted: **Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:53 pm**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:41 am I have no idea about wh.

Hint: Māori.

(There is no ê in orthography section, but it's present in the sample text)

Good point, that should be ⟨ə⟩. I’ll edit my post now.

Posted: **Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:35 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:53 pm
Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:41 am I have no idea about wh.
Hint: Māori.

Thanks, but that's no help, because Maori does have <w>, and it's pronounced as bilabial fricative anyway. (it would be too close to <f>)

Posted: **Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:54 pm**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:35 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 3:53 pm
Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:41 am I have no idea about wh.
Hint: Māori.
Thanks, but that's no help, because Maori does have <w>, and it's pronounced as bilabial fricative anyway. (it would be too close to <f>)

In Māori, ⟨wh⟩ is [ɸ~f]. I intended ⟨wh f⟩ to be /ɸ f/. (Strictly speaking, it would have been better to use ⟨ƒ⟩, as Eʋe does, but I don’t particularly like that letter, so I used ⟨wh⟩ instead.)

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:42 pm**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 8:41 am n mm nn /m n m' n'/
b p pp d t tt g k kk /b p p' d t t' g k k'/
f s z h /fː s~z tsʼ h/
v w l r /β ɣ l r/

Really close to what I have, actually!

The only thing you didn't guess is the fricatives and the liquids: <z> is /θ/, <h> is /x/, <r> is /ɰ/ that gets deleted post-vocally and in clusters and <v> and <w> are /ʋ~w/.

Anyway, how about this semi-historical romanisation:

m n nh nj ng
p b t th d dh ky k gy g kw gw
v s z ch j h
w r

l q and gh are found in loanwords

a á aa an án aan áán aañ ááñ
And likewise for: e ae o ou u i

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:38 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:54 pm In Māori, ⟨wh⟩ is [ɸ~f]. I intended ⟨wh f⟩ to be /ɸ f/. (Strictly speaking, it would have been better to use ⟨ƒ⟩, as Eʋe does, but I don’t particularly like that letter, so I used ⟨wh⟩ instead.)

I'm interested in your actual phoneme assignment.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:47 pm**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:38 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:54 pm In Māori, ⟨wh⟩ is [ɸ~f]. I intended ⟨wh f⟩ to be /ɸ f/. (Strictly speaking, it would have been better to use ⟨ƒ⟩, as Eʋe does, but I don’t particularly like that letter, so I used ⟨wh⟩ instead.)
I'm interested in your actual phoneme assignment.

That was my actual phoneme assignment: ⟨wh f⟩ /ɸ f/. As for the rest of the romanization, I don’t really remember what I started with (I didn’t expect anyone would ask!). What I do remember is that you got the voiceless nasals and laterals right, and you assigned most of the stops correctly, except ⟨pp tt cc kk⟩ were supposed to be ejectives, not geminates. You did get ⟨bb⟩ wrong: it was meant to be a bilabial trill, although I would have been surprised if you got that correct. You also messed up the vowel system, although I wasn’t expecting anyone to get that right either.

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:57 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:47 pm
Xwtek wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:38 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 10, 2019 6:54 pm In Māori, ⟨wh⟩ is [ɸ~f]. I intended ⟨wh f⟩ to be /ɸ f/. (Strictly speaking, it would have been better to use ⟨ƒ⟩, as Eʋe does, but I don’t particularly like that letter, so I used ⟨wh⟩ instead.)
I'm interested in your actual phoneme assignment.
That was my actual phoneme assignment: ⟨wh f⟩ /ɸ f/. As for the rest of the romanization, I don’t really remember what I started with (I didn’t expect anyone would ask!). What I do remember is that you got the voiceless nasals and laterals right, and you assigned most of the stops correctly, except ⟨pp tt cc kk⟩ were supposed to be ejectives, not geminates. You did get ⟨bb⟩ wrong: it was meant to be a bilabial trill, although I would have been surprised if you got that correct. You also messed up the vowel system, although I wasn’t expecting anyone to get that right either.

I meant the entire assignment. So, you lost the entire language documentation?

Posted: **Mon Nov 11, 2019 11:56 pm**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:57 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:47 pm
Xwtek wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 10:38 pm

I'm interested in your actual phoneme assignment.
That was my actual phoneme assignment: ⟨wh f⟩ /ɸ f/. As for the rest of the romanization, I don’t really remember what I started with (I didn’t expect anyone would ask!). What I do remember is that you got the voiceless nasals and laterals right, and you assigned most of the stops correctly, except ⟨pp tt cc kk⟩ were supposed to be ejectives, not geminates. You did get ⟨bb⟩ wrong: it was meant to be a bilabial trill, although I would have been surprised if you got that correct. You also messed up the vowel system, although I wasn’t expecting anyone to get that right either.
I meant the entire assignment. So, you lost the entire language documentation?

No, I just never saved it in the first place. As I mentioned above, I didn’t think anyone would be interested. But I’m fairly sure I can remember all of it:

⟨m n ng hm hn hng⟩ /m n ŋ m̥ n̥ ŋ̊/
⟨p pp b t tt d c cc j k kk g⟩ /pʰ pʼ b tʰ tʼ d t͡ʃʰ t͡ʃʼ d͡ʒ kʰ kʼ g/
⟨l ł ƛ dƛ ƛʼ⟩ /l ɬ tɬ dɮ tɬʼ/
⟨wh f s sh th x⟩ /ɸ f s ʃ θ x/
⟨bb r y⟩ /ʙ r j/
⟨a â aa ɛ e ə i ii o ô u û uu⟩ /ɐ ɑ ɐː æ e ə i iː o ɤ u ɯ uː/

For the short vowels, it may be helpful to think of them like this:

Code: Select all

/i   ɯ u/ ⟨i   û u⟩
/e ə ɤ o/ ⟨e ə ô o⟩
/æ ɐ ɑ  / ⟨ɛ a â  ⟩

So as I mentioned, you got the nasals and laterals right, the stops and fricatives mostly right, and most of the other things wrong.

Posted: **Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:56 am**

Let’s revive this thread! I was playing around with my Conkey keyboard and came up with the following romanization:

⟨a b ƃ c č cь d ƌ e ɛ ə f g ɣ ƣ h ꜧ i ɩ j jь k l ł λ ƛ m n ꞑ ŋ o ɔ ȣ p q r s ʃ ʃь t u ɯ ꞷ ʌ w y z ʒ ǯ ʒь ƹ⟩

Can anyone else figure out a good phonology for this? Here’s my solution, if anyone’s interested:

More: show

_________________

And while I’m at it, I’ll do Knit Tie’s post, which was posted two months ago and still has no solutions:

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 11, 2019 3:42 pm m n nh nj ng
p b t th d dh ky k gy g kw gw
v s z ch j h
w r

l q and gh are found in loanwords

a á aa an án aan áán aañ ááñ
And likewise for: e ae o ou u i

/m n ɳ ɲ ŋ/ ⟨m n nh nj ng⟩
/p b t ʈ d ɖ tʃ k dʒ g kʷ gʷ/ ⟨p b t th d dh ky k gy g kw gw⟩
/v s z ʃ j h/ ⟨v s z ch j h⟩
/(l q ɣ)/ ⟨(l q gh)⟩
/a e ɛ o ɔ u i/ ⟨a e ae o ou u i⟩
/a˧ a˥ a˧ː ã˧ ã˥ ãː˧ ãː˥ aː˧˩ aː˥˧/ ⟨a á aa an án aan áán aañ ááñ⟩

Figuring out what ⟨ñ⟩ meant is the trickiest bit; if you can still remember from when you made this, what did you intend for that to mean?

Posted: **Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:57 am**

<m n ꞑ>
/m n ŋ/

<p b t λ d k g q ƣ>
/p b t tˡ d k ɡ q ɢ/

<c ƛ č ǯ cь>
/ts tɬ ʈʂ ɖʐ tɕ/

<f s z ł ʃ ʒ ʃь ʒь h ɣ ꜧ>
/f s z ɬ ʂ ʐ ɕ ʑ x ɣ ħ/

<ƃ r ƌ ƹ>
/ʙ ɾ d͡r ʁ~ʕ/

<l j jь w>
/l ɰ~j j w/
J is [ɰ] after back vowels and [j] after front vowels. Jь is used for marking [j] after back vowels.

<i y ɯ u ꞷ>
/i iː ɯ u uː/

<e o>
/e o/

<ɩ ə ȣ>
/e̞i ə o̞u/

<ɛ ʌ ɔ>
/ɛ ʌ ɔ/

<a>
/ä/

<ŋ>
nasalization

Are there even upper-case versions for all these letters??

I'll post an alphabet of mine in a minute...

Posted: **Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:43 am**

Here's a romanization from one of my conlangs. Can you come up with a phonology for this? And please divide your phoneme/letter inventory up into shorter lines, so it becomes easier to see what letter corresponds to which sounds.

a ax b d dz e ee f ff g h hh hhy hy i ii j k kk l m n o oo p pp s sh ss ssh t tj ts tt tts u uu v y z · ʻ ◌̣

· is only found word-finally or between vowels. ʻ is only found at the beginning of monosyllabic words. Dot below can be found under any letter (not · or ʻ), however, notice the following exceptions: G̣ġ J̣ȷ̈ P̣ṗ.

I don't have enough to make real example sentences, so I'll just give you this gibberish:

Sax ḷaxde shpo. Ḳami ʻkau hyi yoḅu. Ụunuudue luġax datṭa shaḅelo sas ṇada. Ṣhojubee ṃosh nuȷ̈i-ḥyilu ujaṣee. Hosoi lau ḷuide huẓu ỵoode. Skunai haṇas aḷud deshṭa ụe·i. Ḍaihodue kaġu u·. In neḷu ṣashta ẓembu. Ḳaxsa ʻi·? Kadaḷu katṭa goạs oyaṣhue. ʻHyi ḳae shkatṭe aḷu·.

Posted: **Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:02 am**

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 4:57 am Are there even upper-case versions for all these letters??

Amazingly enough, yes there are! (Except for barred lambda ⟨ƛ⟩; for some reason, that doesn’t have an uppercase.) And here’s the proof:

⟨A B Ƃ C Č CЬ D Ƌ E Ɛ Ə F G Ɣ Ƣ H Ꜧ I Ɩ J JЬ K L Ł Λ (no ƛ capital) M N Ꞑ Ŋ O Ɔ Ȣ P Q R S Ʃ ƩЬ T U Ɯ Ꞷ Ʌ W Y Z Ʒ Ǯ ƷЬ Ƹ⟩

I see now that some of the capitals (capital ⟨λ⟩ and ⟨ʌ⟩, also capital ⟨i⟩ and ⟨ɩ⟩) look the same; I probably should have taken that into account when making this orthography. But the rest of the capitals end up working surprisingly well!

_____________
(I haven’t gotten to your orthography yet; I’ll do that later when I get a bit more time. But I must say, it’s amazingly tricky! I’m getting stuck on the dot below — I can’t think of any coherent meaning for a diacritic which can modify every single letter. But I’m sure I’ll figure out something eventually…)

Posted: **Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:37 am**

a ax b d dz e ee f ff g h hh hhy hy i ii j k kk l m n o oo p pp s sh ss ssh t tj ts tt tts u uu v y z · ʻ ◌̣

/p pː b θ tː d ts tːs dz ʨ ʥ x kː ɡ ʔ/ <p pp b t tt d ts tts dz tj dj k kk g ·>
/ɸ ɸː β s sː z ʂ ʂː ɕ ɕː ħ ħː/ <f ff v s ss z sh ssh hy hhy h hh>
/m n ɭ j/ <m n l y>

/i u ɛ ɔ ɑ ə/ <i u e o ax a>
/iː uː æː ɒː/ <ii uu ee oo>

/V́/ <ʻ[...]V>
/ˀC ʔV/ <C̣ Ṿ>

/sɑ ˀɭɑdɛ ʃpɔ || ˀkəmi kə́u ɕi jɔˀbu || ʔuːnuːduɛ ɭuˀɡɑ dəˀtːə ʂəˀbɛɭɔ səs ˀnədə || ˀʂɔʥubæː ˀmɔʂ nuˀʥiˀɕiɭu uʥəˀsæː || ħɔsɔi ɭəu ˀɭuidɛ ħuˀzu ˀjɒːdɛ || skunəi ħəˀnəs əˀɭud dɛʂˀtə ʔuɛʔi || ˀdəiħɔduɛ kaˀɡu uʔ/
Sax ḷaxde shpo. Ḳami ʻkau hyi yoḅu. Ụunuudue luġax datṭa shaḅelo sas ṇada. Ṣhojubee ṃosh nuȷ̈i-ḥyilu ujaṣee. Hosoi lau ḷuide huẓu ỵoode. Skunai haṇas aḷud deshṭa ụe·i. Ḍaihodue kaġu u·.

----

Here's the romanization of my most developed conlang, Blit, in alphabetical order:

a b bl c d e f g h ḥ i j k l m mb n nd ng ngg o p r s sy t th u v w wh y z

Posted: **Sat Jan 18, 2020 5:48 pm**

Blit: /ʙit/

⟨a e i o u⟩ /a e i o u/

⟨m n ng⟩ /m n ŋ/
⟨b mb d nd g ngg⟩ /b ᵐb d ⁿd g ᵑg/
⟨p t k⟩ /p t k/
⟨f th s c sy ḥ h⟩ /f θ s ʂ ɕ x h/
⟨v z j⟩ /v z ʒ/
⟨bl w wh l r y⟩ /ʙ w ʍ l r j/

(As for Qwynegold’s romanization, I don’t think I’d be able to come up with anything more sensible than Karch’s solution. I’ll post another challenge as soon as I figure out something interesting enough to post.)

Posted: **Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:45 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:56 am Figuring out what ⟨ñ⟩ meant is the trickiest bit; if you can still remember from when you made this, what did you intend for that to mean?

Hey! I meant it as a vowel followed by an actual alveolar nasal, as opposed to a nasalised vowel.

Here's another lang of mine to reverse-romanise:

m nn n nr ny ng
p b ph tt dd tth t d th rt rd rth k g kh
f s z sr r h
w y
a e i o u

Alternatively, here's another romanisation:

m nh n ṇ ñ ŋ
p b th dh t d ṭ ḍ k g
f v s z ṣ ẓ kh gh
rh r ṛ
w y
a e i o u

Posted: **Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:37 pm**

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 9:45 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 12:56 am Figuring out what ⟨ñ⟩ meant is the trickiest bit; if you can still remember from when you made this, what did you intend for that to mean?
Hey! I meant it as a vowel followed by an actual alveolar nasal, as opposed to a nasalised vowel.

Thanks Knit Tie! Here’s your first romanization:

⟨m nn n nr ny ng⟩ /m n̪ n ɳ ɲ ŋ/
⟨p b ph tt dd tth t d th rt rd rth k g kh⟩ /p b pʰ t̪ d̪ t̪ʰ t d tʰ ʈ ɖ ʈʰ k g kʰ/
⟨f s z sr r h⟩ /f s z ʂ ʐ h/
⟨w y⟩ /w j/
⟨a e i o u ⟩ /a e i o u/

And here’s your second, which I actually found pretty similar to the first one:

⟨m nh n ṇ ñ ŋ⟩ /m n̪ n ɳ ɲ ŋ/
⟨p b th dh t d ṭ ḍ k g⟩ /p b t̪ d̪ t d ʈ ɖ k g/
⟨f v s z ṣ ẓ kh gh⟩ /f v s z ʂ ʐ x ɣ/
⟨rh r ṛ⟩ /r̥ r ɻ/
⟨w y⟩ /w j/
⟨a e i o u⟩ /a e i o u/

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:06 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:37 pm

Those are actually supposed to be the same exact language :V. I've included both romanisations as a puzzle of sorts to help people deduce the phonology.

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:51 am**

Knit Tie wrote: ↑Sun Jan 19, 2020 1:06 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 10:37 pm
Those are actually supposed to be the same exact language :V. I've included both romanisations as a puzzle of sorts to help people deduce the phonology.

Oh! Well, in that case, I obviously got it wrong. But I can’t see the solution… could you tell me what it was?

Anyway, here’s another challenge:

⟨a b c̣ c d e f g gö h ȟ ḥ ɛ i ĩ j k ḳ kö ḳö l m n o p ṗ q q̇ r s š t ṭ u ü v w x xö x̌ y z ž⟩

(Hint: Any letters which look like they have been placed ‘out of order’ are placed there deliberately…)

Posted: **Sun Jan 19, 2020 11:19 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:02 amꞶ

Dafuq?

Zompist Bboard Again

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