Conworlding and plausibility

[sasasha]

Of course!! But I personally think ES is more watertight than at first it seems. Because it appeals to tropes it looks silly, but there is some good world-building thought hidden behind the 'I am a stock fantasy world' façade. For instance, the whole conceit of the Elder Scrolls themselves is actually pretty neat, if you ask me.

The problem with TES is that the lore is complex, bizarre, and told entirely by deeply unreliable narrators. Unfortunately, the actual games relegate all of that to in-game books instead of showing it because uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh medieval Europe and dragons I guess. I mean, this is a series where (canonically!) linear time occasionally stops working, the stars and sun are literally holes punched through to a different plane of existence, and all the gods worth talking about are dead, but do you ever talk about that in the games proper? Nooooo.

But what is myth, and what is history? I love the lore, exactly because it is so unreliable - often with no distinction between the two. Just like a lot of medieval (and more generally pre-modern) literature.

TES lore books effectively call to mind writers like Geraldus Cambriensis and Geoffrey of Monmouth, who mix in not just myth but also allegory, prophecy, eschatology, etc. into their historical writing. Just because it's in a lore book doesn't mean it is a 'real' part of the Elder Scrolls universe.

And personally I am glad the gaming environment isn't as insane as it would be if all the lore was obviously related to current observable 'real' world phenomena. Some of the lore is there just to add the extra depth that comes to a society with 'book-learning': not to faithfully document objective truths about the universe they live in.

We'll probably agree to disagree: I see some of TES's flaws as a world-building exercise but also, I think it has a deliberately contrived patina that gives it an outward appearance of being less considered than it actually is. This aids the player who is uninterested in, say, the eschatology of the gameworld just get on and hack critters up. But there is more depth, if you want to access it.

[zompist]

We'll probably agree to disagree: I see some of TES's flaws as a world-building exercise but also, I think it has a deliberately contrived patina that gives it an outward appearance of being less considered than it actually is. This aids the player who is uninterested in, say, the eschatology of the gameworld just get on and hack critters up. But there is more depth, if you want to access it.

The lorebooks are definitely one of the more interesting bits of TES, and contribute to the world seeming more alive than the gameplay alone would do.

But they don't address the sort of problems I mentioned. Ideally a game should present a consistent, non-jarring world at the gameplay level, which you can then deepen all you like with lore, environmental storytelling, etc. It's not impossible: I'd point to the Dishonored games as an example. Everything fits together: game story, gameplay, level design, added lore. I might quibble about a few things (like how the black market shops are signposted and yet never receive guard visits), but it's really well designed. The fact that the PC has extraordinary powers has an in-lore reason, and it has a consistent effect on the world: the authorities are particularly nasty precisely because Void powers manifest destructively in random persons.

The our-world explantion for TES is very understandable: it's been created over decades, by a huge team of people, and designers of quests don't seem to talk to each other, much less level designers vs. lore writers. A lot of amateur worldbuilding ("Abecedean Ocean", a mix of humans and furries, a grab bag of Earth stereotypes) is too longstanding to mess with.

To be sure, this approach produces gems as well as stupidities. And sometimes they can produce a sub-world that's as striking and consistent as Dishonored-- notably the Shivering Isles expansion for Oblivion.

[Bob]

(TES, role playing) ...

Huh, you're really into this.

I study all that stuff but only a bit.

[sasasha]

We'll probably agree to disagree: I see some of TES's flaws as a world-building exercise but also, I think it has a deliberately contrived patina that gives it an outward appearance of being less considered than it actually is. This aids the player who is uninterested in, say, the eschatology of the gameworld just get on and hack critters up. But there is more depth, if you want to access it.

The lorebooks are definitely one of the more interesting bits of TES, and contribute to the world seeming more alive than the gameplay alone would do.

But they don't address the sort of problems I mentioned. Ideally a game should present a consistent, non-jarring world at the gameplay level, which you can then deepen all you like with lore, environmental storytelling, etc. It's not impossible: I'd point to the Dishonored games as an example. Everything fits together: game story, gameplay, level design, added lore. I might quibble about a few things (like how the black market shops are signposted and yet never receive guard visits), but it's really well designed. The fact that the PC has extraordinary powers has an in-lore reason, and it has a consistent effect on the world: the authorities are particularly nasty precisely because Void powers manifest destructively in random persons.

The our-world explantion for TES is very understandable: it's been created over decades, by a huge team of people, and designers of quests don't seem to talk to each other, much less level designers vs. lore writers. A lot of amateur worldbuilding ("Abecedean Ocean", a mix of humans and furries, a grab bag of Earth stereotypes) is too longstanding to mess with.

To be sure, this approach produces gems as well as stupidities. And sometimes they can produce a sub-world that's as striking and consistent as Dishonored-- notably the Shivering Isles expansion for Oblivion.

I feel like I would be misrepresenting myself if I backed into a corner trying to defend TES into the ground. But there is more I feel I could say (and once again, it's about the scale of magical effects: like, doors are really only going to be unneccessary in a world where nobody needs them; even the Mage's Guild etc needs them, for initiates and visitors).

I by no means think TES is the best example of worldbuilding among RPGs; and thanks for the rec on Dishonoured, which sounds great. But I maintain that some of your initial criticisms of it are a bit unfair, cf doors.

[sasasha]

(TES, role playing) ...

Huh, you're really into this.

Games are applied conworlds. Why shouldn't we be?

[zompist]

The doors comment wasn't entirely serious. I wouldn't expect a world of no doors. But I would expect that obvious consequences of teleportation are taken into account.

I mentioned The Stars My Destination, where anyone* can teleport if they know the exact location. This generally requires having been there before. There are consequences, such as: rich people install mazes at their gates, so visitors are disoriented and don't know the exact coordinates of the interior. Jails are in lightless caves so people can't teleport in or out.

*A few people can't, and form a new class of handicapped.

Dishonored has a short-range teleport. But this is covered by lore: Void powers are a one-in-a-million gift, and usually destructive. So there are countermeasures— an entire church devoted to fighting the Void— but people have not redesigned buildings against teleportation; it's just too uncommon to be worth it.