Zompist Bboard Again

Clearly the term “hut” meaning “basic domicile” is a colloquial development—specifically shortening and generalization—of “Pizza Hut”, a location apparently held in great esteem.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:09 am Of course, we see the suffix -on, as found in Yukon, Oregon, Washington, Cimarron, Trenton, Carson City, Jefferson City, Jackson, Boston, Baton Rouge, Houston, Arlington
It seems to have three allomorphs: -ton after s or a nasal, -son after s, r (possibly assimilated in Cimarron).
Other common suffixes: the very common -a and -ia, and the suffix -as, found in Texas, Arkansas and Texas.

I'm a bit suspicious of Fresno and Sanfrancisco, and possibly Elpaso, on this ground. The first two are quite close to each other, and even Elpaso isn't terrifically far considering the huge extent of the language (family)'s area*. I wonder if the final -n wore off for some reason.

*: Pretend that I used whichever one matches the theory you prefer and don't derail with language-versus-sprachbund wars, please! We all get enough of that elsewhere.

Neon Fox wrote: ↑Thu Oct 29, 2020 11:45 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:09 am Of course, we see the suffix -on, as found in Yukon, Oregon, Washington, Cimarron, Trenton, Carson City, Jefferson City, Jackson, Boston, Baton Rouge, Houston, Arlington
It seems to have three allomorphs: -ton after s or a nasal, -son after s, r (possibly assimilated in Cimarron).
Other common suffixes: the very common -a and -ia, and the suffix -as, found in Texas, Arkansas and Texas.

I'm a bit suspicious of Fresno and Sanfrancisco, and possibly Elpaso, on this ground. The first two are quite close to each other, and even Elpaso isn't terrifically far considering the huge extent of the language (family)'s area*. I wonder if the final -n wore off for some reason.

*: Pretend that I used whichever one matches the theory you prefer and don't derail with language-versus-sprachbund wars, please! We all get enough of that elsewhere.

Indeed, good catch!. And I'm likewise intrigued by the similarity between San Francis-co and New Mexi-co.

I think we may safely reconstruct a pre-proto-American locative suffix *-kʲon or *-con

Here in Wisconsin we have a clear *wOk morpheme, as shown by Milwaukee, Waukesha, Pewaukee, Oconomowoc, and Manitowoc.

Our researchers have uncovered evidence of a once-renowned explorer and pioneer named Scott who likely lived along the east coast of the continent. He was so well liked that the common people were taken to exclaim "Great Scott!" when faced with something that triggered strong emotions. Chief among the places named by or for this man is Swampscott, Massachusetts, a thriving coastal haven located north and east of Boston. Astute readers will note that swamp is a Native American loanword for a lowland marsh or moor.

In Swampscott we find maps of a nearby river called the Presumpscot. Presumably, this river once flowed into the town of Swampscott and was named with the prefix pre- to indicate that it is the source.

But Mr Scott was a well-traveled man. Far afield of Swampscott and its river we find the now-lost settlement of Scottsbluff, situated on the Platte River. From the name, we can be confident that our intrepid explorer had made a bet that he could build a city in a hostile climate with summer storms unlike any he and his followers had ever seen before.

Further south we find records of yet another city, called Scottsdale. We are not sure of the meaning of this town name, but it may be a cooperative settlement between Mr Scott and another explorer named Dale.

At a similar latitude, but closer to his home, we find the town of Scottsboro. Further research will be devoted to uncovering the meaning of the second element, as we find it also in other town names nearby.

By far the greatest record of this explorer's legacy, however, is the great nation of Scotland, which we can confidently say was founded by the explorer after a great sea journey from his original birthplace across the wide and stormy sea.

I love this

Pabappa wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:21 pmBy far the greatest record of this explorer's legacy, however, is the great nation of Scotland, which we can confidently say was founded by the explorer after a great sea journey from his original birthplace across the wide and stormy sea.

Great Scott!

To prove this beyond all reasonable doubt, the ancient capital of Scotland appears to have been named Edinburgh. This follows the naming trend set by Scottsboro, though showing the influence of a mysterious laryngeal, perhaps preserved in the conservative speech of the far-flung colony of Scotland. Perhaps Edin was one of Scott's heirs? It is also likely that the colonists who followed Scott's great expedition named their capital after the Garden of Eden of ancient fable - perhaps yet another laryngeal may explain the variance of Eden and Edin?

sasasha wrote: ↑Thu Dec 03, 2020 2:05 am

Pabappa wrote: ↑Sun Nov 15, 2020 2:21 pmBy far the greatest record of this explorer's legacy, however, is the great nation of Scotland, which we can confidently say was founded by the explorer after a great sea journey from his original birthplace across the wide and stormy sea.

Great Scott!

To prove this beyond all reasonable doubt, the ancient capital of Scotland appears to have been named Edinburgh. This follows the naming trend set by Scottsboro, though showing the influence of a mysterious laryngeal, perhaps preserved in the conservative speech of the far-flung colony of Scotland. Perhaps Edin was one of Scott's heirs? It is also likely that the colonists who followed Scott's great expedition named their capital after the Garden of Eden of ancient fable - perhaps yet another laryngeal may explain the variance of Eden and Edin?

Other sources have traced this name to ed-, a general-purpose negative prefix, inb, "place to the south", and -urgh, a pejorative suffix; thus "not that awful place to the south".

Examples of broken slabs have been found with an internal "green slate" (to use the term favoured by Professor Branestawm) which is usually decorated with what appears to be a type of cursive writing, whose major characteristic is that it consists of straight lines, metal dots and rectangles. It has not been deciphered, and even the directionality is the object of controversy. The meaning or function of the little black "decorations" (usually removed, but some examples are still extant) is even more opaque. A particularly large specimen (nearly 13 inches) with nearly intact "decorations" was the cause of a row between Professors Basket and Canard over who was entitled to credit for the hypothesis that the decorations indicated vowels.

The current (unproven) hypothesis is that the slabs were a means of carrying secret messages, that were written on the green slate in metal and concealed in the case. The messages were presumably written in metal to make them difficult to forge or alter. Evidence favouring this hypothesis includes a preserved ancient paper notebook from "Goldstone" in the Mojave Desert, which is full of very similar examples of writing to the green slates and is hypothesised to belong to the same writing system. Presumably the unknown writer was making first drafts of his or her messages in pen and ink.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Wed Oct 21, 2020 9:09 amOf course, we see the suffix -on, as found in Yukon, Oregon, Washington, Cimarron, Trenton, Carson City, Jefferson City, Jackson, Boston, Baton Rouge, Houston, Arlington
It seems to have three allomorphs: -ton after s or a nasal, -son after s, r (possibly assimilated in Cimarron).

Incidentally, Goldstone appears to be a variant of the common -ton suffix, with the addition of a vowel.

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Tue Dec 08, 2020 10:05 am Examples of broken slabs have been found with an internal "green slate" (to use the term favoured by Professor Branestawm) which is usually decorated with what appears to be a type of cursive writing, whose major characteristic is that it consists of straight lines, metal dots and rectangles. It has not been deciphered, and even the directionality is the object of controversy. The meaning or function of the little black "decorations" (usually removed, but some examples are still extant) is even more opaque. A particularly large specimen (nearly 13 inches) with nearly intact "decorations" was the cause of a row between Professors Basket and Canard over who was entitled to credit for the hypothesis that the decorations indicated vowels.

The current (unproven) hypothesis is that the slabs were a means of carrying secret messages, that were written on the green slate in metal and concealed in the case. The messages were presumably written in metal to make them difficult to forge or alter. Evidence favouring this hypothesis includes a preserved ancient paper notebook from "Goldstone" in the Mojave Desert, which is full of very similar examples of writing to the green slates and is hypothesised to belong to the same writing system. Presumably the unknown writer was making first drafts of his or her messages in pen and ink.

(Is this a joke about a very particular modern object? I can't guess what it is.)

It took me a moment, but it's about PCB's

I can't help but be a little upset that this thread went from a case study into the distortions and misapprehensions created by trying to use toponymy as a proxy for sociolinguistic evidence to jokes and shaggy dog stories.

I think both at once is good: see for instance this paper about the Nacerima
The author combined humour with a point about how anthropologists use language in ways that make foreign societies very exotic but do not apply the same to familiar cultures. Despite being filled with jokes, it is now part of many anthropology classes' introductory material.

mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:51 pm I think both at once is good: see for instance this paper about the Nacerima
The author combined humour with a point about how anthropologists use language in ways that make foreign societies very exotic but do not apply the same to familiar cultures. Despite being filled with jokes, it is now part of many anthropology classes' introductory material.

Of course, how could I have forgotten that! Even more on-topic, of course, is The Retention of Folk Linguistic Concepts and the tiʼyčɨr Caste in Contemporary Nacireman Culture.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 5:54 pm Of course, how could I have forgotten that! Even more on-topic, of course, is The Retention of Folk Linguistic Concepts and the tiʼyčɨr Caste in Contemporary Nacireman Culture.

Unfortunately, that one comes across as an arrogant misunderstanding of the concept of letters.

dhok wrote: ↑Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:37 am Manhattan looks like it has the -tən morpheme. Probably the Man- would be taken as cognate to the mi- of Minnesota and Missouri--maybe Massachusetts as it's much closer. (All of these connections are incorrect--Manhattan is from PA *menahanwi.
...
-chester is likely to be recognizable: Manchester (NH) and two Rochesters (NY and MN) possess it. Not so clear is whether it would be connected to Lancaster (CA) and the particularly impenetrable [wʊstə(r)], Massachusetts.

it's tempting to link Man- in Manhattan and Manchester to the reconstructed mont, though the loss of -t in the former is harder to justify than in the latter. Sacramento might reflect this root as well

One might make something of "North" and "South", and the fact that the vowels in the following words go dAkOtA and cArOlInA. Maybe the suffix "-ina" is a variant of "-a"?

On which note, some such prefix or word "car-~cal-" (appearing in Carolina, California) seems to have had something to do with temperate coastal regions, probably having originally been something like */karʲɵ/, differentiating into */kaʎɵ~kaʎɪ/ > */kalɪ/ in the West, but */karɵ~karo~kero/ (there is evidence of an /e/ pronunciation) in the East. Perhaps it referred to coniferous forests (the redwoods of California and the pine forests of Carolina being thought of as containing the same sorts of trees, or variants of them, with the name being applied to various similar species along the way). The second element may also be the same, perhaps */flɵrnʲa/ > */fleːnʲa/ > */leːna/ > */liːna/ in the east, but */flɵrnʲa/ > */fʲɵrnʲa/ > /*fjornja/ > */fornja/ (dissimilated or yod-dropping?) in the West. This remains purely speculative, however.

Further up, an element */new~nyː~njuː/ may have had something to do with ports or harbours, the other place names with the New- element having apparently nothing whatever to do with each-other. It may or may not be connected to an element */no(r)θ/, appearing in or near areas with large lakes, the two perhaps instead having been connected with water?

mèþru wrote: ↑Wed Dec 09, 2020 4:51 pm I think both at once is good: see for instance this paper about the Nacerima
The author combined humour with a point about how anthropologists use language in ways that make foreign societies very exotic but do not apply the same to familiar cultures. Despite being filled with jokes, it is now part of many anthropology classes' introductory material.

This goes well beyond languages indeed.

Relevant story
Also relevant comedy video

I do get sick of deliberate exoticism or otherwise stilted language applied to anything even a little different from an authors' norm. On top of the usual awful implications, it makes it tricky to imagine the concept of and comprehend even a little bit- IME.

Do any audio transcripts survive? How do we still have the pronunciation down? I'll just operate off the assumption we do.
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The Ustatians were a group of people in many of the sections of America. This makes one of the four continents of the western hemisphere. The Ustatians were extremely interesting to us today for many reasons. Modern science would still like to know what the secret ingredients were that the Ustatians used so that they could have modern oils, foods, and ointments for innumerable centuries. This interesting riddle is quite a challenge for science even today.