Yttes -- NP: the Disk City

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Rounin Ryuuji
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

So, not being very knowledgeable about physics, let me attempt to pick this apart as if it were a magic system, which is probably how an average reader would interpret it (if they trouble themselves with the science at all):

(1) So you can shoot a wormhole to some distant planet, creating a sort of spatiotemporal bridge between two points allowing for effective teleportation without the destruction and creation of matter at its terminal points. At the point of the wormhole away from the origin — let's name it the "end" — you will not only be at a point in space howevermany light years away, but also [number of light years travelled] - [relative time to the wormhole as it travelled] Earth years in the future.

As a lay reader with some knowledge of time being relative, but being very hazy on practical ramifications, and more interested in being told a good story, I like this even if it is not the most scientifically accurate. The method by which this is achieved could also, in theory, involve some sort of exotic matter or state of matter, or energy, which may or may not actually exist, but this might veer too far into soft science fiction or science fantasy for what you desire. It would, however, possibly be helpful to the fiction itself, depending on what the desired result actually is. This would, I think, however, fit well with the "magic wardrobes in space". Do I also get an analogue to a talking magical lion who may or may not have created the universe?

(2) Wormholes near enough to each-other can create a cycle that crashes them, triggering some catastrophic meltdown or collapse into a black hole, making functional timetravel impossible, even though what you are doing in travelling through wormholes is functionally timetravel (one end might, for example, have a visually exploded Betelgeuse in the sky, while another does not), albeit timetravel that has no probable bearing on the two ends, being so separated by distance as they are.

Looping could, of course, be avoided by having two wormholes that lead to a certain place, but no local temporal overlap between them (one from Massotis to Earth which lasts from 1500-1850, but which is then destroyed, followed by a subsequent wormhole between Yttes and Earth from 1920 to the present day, with one having existed between Yttes and Massotis the whole time). I could see timetravel being functionally possible with some manipulation of this, now that I think on it, though it would require a great deal of planning and engineering, and ultimately likely not be extremely useful for anything specific.

(3) I had typed this before certain posts, which seem to corroborate what was originally a speculation that, looking through them, until the moment of the accident, light passing through a wormhole would function as an average layman might expect it to (that is, you would see where you expect to get to if you go through the wormhole); assuming that travel through the wormhole is slower-than-light in relativistic terms, I expect the "image" in the wormhole would remain thus till the moment of the accident, at which point it would cut to the elsewhere in interstellar space instantaneously. Depending on the scale of the image, you might also see the craft sent through arriving there (are travelling craft visible to a person outside looking into the wormhole?), and then presumably turning round as there isn't much point to remaining in the middle of nowhere.

This sort of disruption would (if it does actually happen in-setting) very likely be a minor risk every time one takes such transit, though presumably it would not be statistically more dangerous than automobiles (which are, to my understanding, actually relatively dangerous, especially when compared with trains, and sea and air transport, though catastrophic failure of any of these other methods is immediately far more tragically catastrophic because of the size of the crafts and the number of people likely to be involved). The shift in terminus, if it is unpredictable, could end up somewhere fatal, but my understanding is that most of the universe is empty, so it is more likely to simply end somewhere inconvenient but without much other consequence other than the loss of time (which may be very consequential in and of itself as far as individual humans are concerned, of course). Such transport vessels would, consequently, I imagine, have to be loaded with enough supplies for a round trip, just in case. It could even become proverbial for advanced preparedness for a wildly improbable scenario (if it is wildly improbable, that is).

(4) If you send something through a wormhole, the sending end increases in mass by the amount sent, and the exiting end loses an equal amount of mass? This is rather what it sounds like, however this is rather perplexing. My mind wants to conceive the hole as a rather literal hole, as a sort of "tunnel"; when passing through a tunnel in the ground, one does not increase the mass of the tunnel, nor reduce it, but rather an object with its own mass and such appears to pass through it. This is where the suspension of disbelief in a layperson might begin to break down: if this were a magic system, I would view it as needlessly confusing and complicated, though I suppose it does provide an easy way of closing a wormhole at one end if desired (simply send through a massive enough object and your hole is closed), however this also raises the question of what happens when one sends through an object that is too massive for the wormhole to handle. Does it simply collapse then? In this case, wormholes are extremely dangerous to maintain, and whether or not Yttes would have much popular support for their maintenance (dozens of potential black holes surrounding the capital of your interstellar empire is not really an appealing thought if you are a citizen of said capital of said interstellar empire, and the empire, in spite of the name, does not appear to be autocratic enough that they would maintain such things against the popular will); my guess is that this isn't what actually happens (perhaps the overmassive object is simply ejected back whence it came?), however it is something worth addressing, I think.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is not, of course, intended to dispute any actual science that would contradict what you already have, more to give an approximation of how it would be received by a lay audience more concerned about reading an interesting piece of fiction.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by zompist »

Ares Land wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:55 pm
zompist wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:10 pm And, I'm sorry to harp on this, but it makes no sense. A thought experiment: you send two wormhole ends from Yttes toward Massotis. Wormhole A makes it, in a hundred years. Wormhole B is hit by a cosmic bus three months out, and is sent careening off, and never comes near any stars.

The question: Two months after the experiment, you look through both wormholes. What do you see?

Note, it's a month before the accident— it hasn't happened yet. The wormholes and Yttes cannot anticipate it. How does wormhole A know that it will eventually reach Massotis so you can see it? Does wormhole B know it will be hit by a bus, and therefore show you interstellar space, or does it not know the future, and therefore show you a picture of Massotis which it will never see?
Let's assume wormhole B hits the cosmic bus three months out from Yttes perspective. (if it were three months out by its own perspective, well, it would already be at Massotis).

That means it's hit by the bus 3.7 hours after launch from its own perspective. You can see the accident from Yttes if you look through the wormhole hole 3.7 hours after launch. If you look through it after two months you see interstellar space.
(If you look through Wormhole A after two months you see Massotis).
One more attempt, and then I'll drop it (as an unbelievable bit of an otherwise lovely conworld). This scenario seems to confuse the photons' movement with the wormholes.

Same scenario: it's t + 3 months in Yttes, when B gets hit by a bus. We want to look through the wormhole. Well, this is already confusing: you don't look by sending something through the wormhole; you look by capturing photons that fell in the other side. Where did they fall from? B is in the middle of interstellar space 3 light-months from Yttes. B thinks it's 3.7 hours out, of course. But any photons in the area did not travel with it-- they are unaffected by the whole shenanigans.

OK, maybe photons are confusing. Let's define "looking" more simply: we drop our iPhone into the wormhole and consider what its camera sees on the other end. (We won't even ask yet how Yttes gets any info back from the phone!)

Now, my view is that the wormhole is precisely a short tunnel connecting two points in spacetime. I assume it takes very little time to go through. So I say the iPhone drops out the other end, at the location the wormhole end has reached, 3 light-months out. It does not take 3.7 hours to fall through-- that's the time it took for the wormhole to get there, not the time it takes for the iPhone to fall through. It moves 3 light months, not 100 ly, because that's where the wormhole (currently) is. It can't go faster or farther than the wormhole.

With either relativity or quantum mechanics, you have to be really careful about smuggling in assumptions from conventional experience. Here I think it's the idea of "looking through the wormhole." That's why I'm insisting on defining that more precisely. It either means capturing photons that are there, or sending a probe through. When you think about how things happen physically, I think it's clear that you cannot get results from 100 years in the future.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Ares Land »

zompist wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:41 pm One more attempt, and then I'll drop it (as an unbelievable bit of an otherwise lovely conworld). This scenario seems to confuse the photons' movement with the wormholes.
Thanks! And no problem. I really appreciate the opportunity to think about this in detail.

May I answer with another thought experiment?

Suppose I plug a webcam to my computer, and put it through the wormhole. The USB cable is plugged to my computer at Yates, goes through the wormhole and exits through the other end, where it's plugged to the webcam.
As seen from within the 'tunnel' that connects both ends, the two ends are stationary, at rest and, say, 20 centimeters from each other.

Now I send the wormhole towards M'assois -- what do I see during the trip?
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by zompist »

Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 2:19 am Suppose I plug a webcam to my computer, and put it through the wormhole. The USB cable is plugged to my computer at Yates, goes through the wormhole and exits through the other end, where it's plugged to the webcam.
As seen from within the 'tunnel' that connects both ends, the two ends are stationary, at rest and, say, 20 centimeters from each other.

Now I send the wormhole towards M'assois -- what do I see during the trip?
Much better idea than throwing iPhones away. :)

I'm assuming the webcam is outside the wormhole, but attached to the superstructure that holds and propels it-- itself traveling at relativistic speeds.

I think you'd see the journey to Massotis-- over a period of a hundred years Yttes time. Because that's how long it take the wormhole to get there: it cannot transmit pictures from within Massotis system till it's there, and that takes that long.

Let's say the webcam is 60 fps. It records for two months, its time. That's 311 million frames. But from Yttes' persepctive, it's running extremely slowly. Yttes receives a frame every 10 seconds, if I've done the math correctly.

(Edit: If you ask what happens along the wire within the wormhole... I dunno, wormholes are weird! But the webcam is outside it throughout the journey, and it's definitely moving at relativistic speeds compared to Yttes... you could even confirm this by having it send regular texts back to you through normal space as it goes, assuming it has a rather powerful comm laser.)
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Ares Land »

Now let's replace the wire with a comm laser.
The signal now can only move at c.

If it takes 10 seconds on average for the signal to get at Yttes, then that means the inside of the wormhole is now 10 light seconds long on average. And, in fact, once it's at Massotis it's 100 light years. (Which is equivalent to no wormhole at all!)

But the spec of the wormhole says that from the inside of the wormhole tunnel, both ends remain at 20 centimeters away and at rest, no matter what.

The real question is, can we build something according to that spec? The answer is a tentative yes. (The equations allow it, but imply a kind of handwavium called negative energy density, that probably can't exist in real life.)

Other thought experiments:
- assume this all works as you stated. I pass along laptop and webcam to my great-grandfather. 120 years from now, with the wormhole at rest, how often does she get frames?
- again, assuming this works, suppose in 99 years, she gets through the wormhole as it approaches Massotis. How long does it take for her to get there? How about getting back?

(I think your view amounts to there being no wormhole at all. Which is entirely right because as far as we know, wormholes don't exist! My point is, rather, that if there was such a thing as a wormhole, then it would necessarily behave as stated by Thorne)
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by zompist »

Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:08 am Now let's replace the wire with a comm laser.
The signal now can only move at c.

If it takes 10 seconds on average for the signal to get at Yttes, then that means the inside of the wormhole is now 10 light seconds long on average. And, in fact, once it's at Massotis it's 100 light years. (Which is equivalent to no wormhole at all!)

But the spec of the wormhole says that from the inside of the wormhole tunnel, both ends remain at 20 centimeters away and at rest, no matter what.
I don't think that affects anything. I'm treating it as a Narnia portal, with no internal structure at all-- "a tunnel with two ends at separate points in spacetime" as Wikipedia puts it. Nothing essential changes if it takes 10 seconds to traverse.

From the wormhole's frame of reference, both ends are at rest. From Yttes's perspective, both ends are moving apart at relativistic speed. That's pretty weird, yes, but relativity told us long ago to give up idea of an absolute frame of reference! You can't mix the frames you're using: if you're in the wormhole you cannot observe the ends moving apart; if you're outside it, you cannot claim that they are moving and not moving.
- assume this all works as you stated. I pass along laptop and webcam to my great-grandfather. 120 years from now, with the wormhole at rest, how often does she get frames?
"At rest" = "no time distortions". She gets 60 fps.
- again, assuming this works, suppose in 99 years, she gets through the wormhole as it approaches Massotis. How long does it take for her to get there? How about getting back?
How long do you think? Again, don't confuse the distance between the ends viewed externally, or the time it took the wormhole to travel, for the time it takes to traverse the portal. I assume it takes almost no time, though the technology that maintains the wormhole, supplies energy, allows macro objects to travel it etc., could impose more time.
(I think your view amounts to there being no wormhole at all.
Not at all, my viewpoint is that there is a wormhole that allows (near-)instantaneous transit between its two ends. In my view, I'm taking this into account, while Cramer is mistaking the final state of the expedition (a 100-year trip) as somehow existing long before it's done.

Caveat: I understand the basics of relativity-- which is far less weird than quantum mechanics-- but I haven't the foggiest clue how you get Einstein's equations to cough up black holes, much less wormholes. I may not be grasping something. Still, I'd love to know how Cramer would handle my bus thought experiment!
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

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zompist wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:14 am From the wormhole's frame of reference, both ends are at rest. From Yttes's perspective, both ends are moving apart at relativistic speed. That's pretty weird, yes, but relativity told us long ago to give up idea of an absolute frame of reference! You can't mix the frames you're using: if you're in the wormhole you cannot observe the ends moving apart; if you're outside it, you cannot claim that they are moving and not moving.
Why not? My understanding is that the two ends of the wormhole absolutely can have different states: the two ends can have any velocity relative to each other, and any acceleration. (Otherwise, the ends of the wormhole would have a fixed displacement from each other, which would make it pretty useless.) And you say that we can’t mix frames of reference, but that’s not true: the issue we’ve run into with wormholes is that their ends are no longer in the same frame of reference.

With that in mind, here’s a response to your earlier example:
zompist wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 3:18 am Let's say the webcam is 60 fps. It records for two months, its time. That's 311 million frames. But from Yttes' persepctive, it's running extremely slowly. Yttes receives a frame every 10 seconds, if I've done the math correctly.

(Edit: If you ask what happens along the wire within the wormhole... I dunno, wormholes are weird! But the webcam is outside it throughout the journey, and it's definitely moving at relativistic speeds compared to Yttes... you could even confirm this by having it send regular texts back to you through normal space as it goes, assuming it has a rather powerful comm laser.)
I’d like to simplify this example a bit. Let’s say you have a laser next to the webcam, sending ultrashort pulses back through the wormhole at a rate of 1 per second. On the spaceship side, the situation is pretty simple: the laser fires at 1 Hz. From this perspective, I suppose our disagreement is really to do with what happens within the wormhole. I (and presumably also Ares Land) think that if the pulses come in the one side of the wormhole at 1 Hz, they’ll come out the other side at the same rate: with a separation of 1 second between each pulse. This, however, means that we see light coming from the future. By contrast, in your interpretation, this temporal separation changes through the wormhole to account for the difference in reference frames; the pulses then come out the other end at >1 Hz.

Is there any way to tell who is correct? Let’s take a look at a space-time diagram (grabbed and modified from https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File ... aneity.svg):

Relativity_of_Simultaneity.png
Relativity_of_Simultaneity.png (49.23 KiB) Viewed 8879 times

Here we see two frames of reference. Green is ours: it is stationary from our point of view. The blue reference frame is travelling to the left relative to us; this is the spaceship moving away at a relativistic speed. In this reference frame, a laser emits a pulse periodically; the location of each pulse in space-time is given by the white circles. These pulses are then transported through the wormhole such that they arrive at our location (x=0) at the same time as they are emitted.

But hold on, what do we mean by ‘at the same time’ exactly? A central conclusion of special relativity is that there is no such thing: simultaneity is relative! Before we can talk about such things, we need to choose a reference frame in which to measure simultaneity. My interpretation corresponds to the signals travelling instantaneously with respect to the blue reference frame (i.e. that of the laser): they follow the horizontal blue lines, and we see the flashes of light coming out the other side of the wormhole at the 4-positions given by the blue circles. Your interpretation, on the other hand, has the signals travelling through the green reference frame (i.e. ours): they follow the horizontal green lines, and we see the flashes coming out at the green-circle events. Which perspective is correct? I don’t know: neither is obviously wrong. It depends on whether the wormhole transports stuff in the reference frame of its entrance or of its exit (or even of the observer, which would give us yet another set of events!). I suspect a proper resolution will have to wait until we get a coherent theory of quantum gravity. Until then, the takeaway for me is that you can give your wormholes any temporal behaviour you want; all of them are equally (im)plausible.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Ares Land »

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:22 pm This is not, of course, intended to dispute any actual science that would contradict what you already have, more to give an approximation of how it would be received by a lay audience more concerned about reading an interesting piece of fiction.
Very nice stuff, thanks for the feedback!
The policy on wormhole will be that the reader won't get to learn how they work, or how they are built. From a story perspective, they're only useful to get from point A to point B. Most of this stuff is for my own use really. I won't get into the details of relativistic effects or mass balancing. They would just be boring (and besides, I don't understand these well enough to give them justice).

Concerning the issue of mass balancing: if you send 10 kg through a wormhole, the mass of the near end of the wormhole increased by 10 kg. That at the far end decreases by 10kg once the mass gets through. If the wormhole isn't massive enough, the mass gets to 0, or even becomes negative. What that actually means is anyone's guess: there doesn't seem to be an answer to that question. What I decided on is that they collapse, releasing their mass's worth as energy.

This indeed means wormholes are potentially very dangerous objects. This has the following consequences:
- Wormholes are kept at some distance (1 light minute is a good minimum) from inhabited places, and near or inside asteroids. The asteroid is used for extra mass should it be needed. It's also a good refueling stop for passing ships. Finally, should the wormhole collapse, the asteroid will act as a shield, absorbing most of the nasty radiation.
- There are limits towards how massive spaceships can be. You don't want your wormholes arbitrarily massive: the damage done should they collapse is a function of their mass (via E=mc2). Of course a wormhole farther away from inhabited places can accommodate larger ships, and a closer one allows only small ones.
- The Empire wants a monopoly on wormholes. They don't trust anyone with such destructive technology.

(again in fiction, the reader only needs to know the wormhole's in an asteroid, and can be spared the sordid details.)
zompist wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:14 am Caveat: I understand the basics of relativity-- which is far less weird than quantum mechanics-- but I haven't the foggiest clue how you get Einstein's equations to cough up black holes, much less wormholes. I may not be grasping something. Still, I'd love to know how Cramer would handle my bus thought experiment!
Same here! I'd love to see someone who does get the mathematics of it tackle the problem.
Actually, I prefer your version of wormholes. In particular, it doesn't allow time machines, which is more satisfying than relying on magic quantum fluctuations. The one thing bothering me is that it didn't come up in my research...
(I think I'll forget about the time travel implications for now. I wasn't intending to use them anyway, so for narrative purposes they're a needless complication.)
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

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Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:04 pmConcerning the issue of mass balancing: if you send 10 kg through a wormhole, the mass of the near end of the wormhole increased by 10 kg. That at the far end decreases by 10kg once the mass gets through. If the wormhole isn't massive enough, the mass gets to 0, or even becomes negative.
Could you elaborate on this? I don't follow the logic at all.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Ares Land »

KathTheDragon wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:08 pm
Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:04 pmConcerning the issue of mass balancing: if you send 10 kg through a wormhole, the mass of the near end of the wormhole increased by 10 kg. That at the far end decreases by 10kg once the mass gets through. If the wormhole isn't massive enough, the mass gets to 0, or even becomes negative.
Could you elaborate on this? I don't follow the logic at all.
The wormhole behaves as if the other end was in other universe.

If 10kg goes through it, it's as if 10kg disappeared from the universe. Which violates the idea of conservation of mass.
So the wormhole end through which the mass disappears gains 10kg.

On the other side, when the 10kg appear, it's as if the universe suddenly gained 10kg. Which, again, violates conservation of mass.
So the wormhole end through which the mass appears loses 10 kg.

The problem is, of course what if that wormhole end had a mass of only 5kg in the first place? Does it now have a mass of -5kg?

What I decided happens is that the wormhole end just disappears when it's mass reaches zero.


Another way to look at it: suppose one end is on Mars and the other is on Earth. Send an object from the Mars end.
It appears on Earth. Earth's velocity is higher than Mars's, as it is closer to the Sun. So the object gains kinetic energy when it reaches Earth. Besides, gravity is higher on Earth, so the object gains gravitational potential energy.
In other words, energy just appeared out of nowhere!

But, if you posit that the wormhole end on Earth loses mass, then conservation of energy is preserved.

Yet another analogy: place one wormhole end 10 meters above the other. Drop a stone into the bottom end. It appears put of the top end and falls down the bottom end, then appears again at the top and keeps falling.
If the masses of the wormhole end don't change, you got yourself a perpetual motion machine.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Rounin Ryuuji »

Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:04 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:22 pm This is not, of course, intended to dispute any actual science that would contradict what you already have, more to give an approximation of how it would be received by a lay audience more concerned about reading an interesting piece of fiction.
Very nice stuff, thanks for the feedback!
No problem.
Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:04 pm The policy on wormhole will be that the reader won't get to learn how they work, or how they are built. From a story perspective, they're only useful to get from point A to point B. Most of this stuff is for my own use really. I won't get into the details of relativistic effects or mass balancing. They would just be boring (and besides, I don't understand these well enough to give them justice).

Concerning the issue of mass balancing: if you send 10 kg through a wormhole, the mass of the near end of the wormhole increased by 10 kg. That at the far end decreases by 10kg once the mass gets through. If the wormhole isn't massive enough, the mass gets to 0, or even becomes negative. What that actually means is anyone's guess: there doesn't seem to be an answer to that question. What I decided on is that they collapse, releasing their mass's worth as energy.

This indeed means wormholes are potentially very dangerous objects. This has the following consequences:
- Wormholes are kept at some distance (1 light minute is a good minimum) from inhabited places, and near or inside asteroids. The asteroid is used for extra mass should it be needed. It's also a good refueling stop for passing ships. Finally, should the wormhole collapse, the asteroid will act as a shield, absorbing most of the nasty radiation.
- There are limits towards how massive spaceships can be. You don't want your wormholes arbitrarily massive: the damage done should they collapse is a function of their mass (via E=mc2). Of course a wormhole farther away from inhabited places can accommodate larger ships, and a closer one allows only small ones.
- The Empire wants a monopoly on wormholes. They don't trust anyone with such destructive technology.

(again in fiction, the reader only needs to know the wormhole's in an asteroid, and can be spared the sordid details.)
This could end up being an interesting point of drama later, depending on how it's executed. You could introduce the detail to the user in some expositorially-interesting fashion, and save it for a later Chekhov's Gun.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

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Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:23 pm
KathTheDragon wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:08 pm
Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 4:04 pmConcerning the issue of mass balancing: if you send 10 kg through a wormhole, the mass of the near end of the wormhole increased by 10 kg. That at the far end decreases by 10kg once the mass gets through. If the wormhole isn't massive enough, the mass gets to 0, or even becomes negative.
Could you elaborate on this? I don't follow the logic at all.
<snip>
Oh, ok, that makes sense.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Richard W »

Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:23 pm Yet another analogy: place one wormhole end 10 meters above the other. Drop a stone into the bottom end. It appears put of the top end and falls down the bottom end, then appears again at the top and keeps falling.
If the masses of the wormhole end don't change, you got yourself a perpetual motion machine.
If you don't hurl the stone into the bottom end fast, surely it will just come to a halt and then fall out of the bottom end. Aren't potential energy differences a big problem with several types of transporter?
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

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Richard W wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:18 am If you don't hurl the stone into the bottom end fast, surely it will just come to a halt and then fall out of the bottom end. Aren't potential energy differences a big problem with several types of transporter?
Yes, conservation of mass and energy in general is a problem whenever you have anything like a transporter.

In that example, yes, you have the same problem if you just drop the stone; it keeps falling through the bottom end, then through the top end, gaining potential energy each time.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

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KathTheDragon wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:22 am
Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:23 pm
KathTheDragon wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:08 pm Could you elaborate on this? I don't follow the logic at all.
<snip>
Oh, ok, that makes sense.
After thinking about this a bit more, I'm unconvinced that the problem even exists. After all, isn't the interior of the wormhole supposed to be smooth, continuous spacetime? As far as any region of spacetime that intersects the mass's path is concerned, the mass enters and exits perfectly legitimately, so conservation of mass should be satisfied.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Richard W »

Ares Land wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:35 pm
Richard W wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:18 am If you don't hurl the stone into the bottom end fast, surely it will just come to a halt and then fall out of the bottom end. Aren't potential energy differences a big problem with several types of transporter?
Yes, conservation of mass and energy in general is a problem whenever you have anything like a transporter.

In that example, yes, you have the same problem if you just drop the stone; it keeps falling through the bottom end, then through the top end, gaining potential energy each time.
No. When you drop it into the bottom end, it has to overcome the very real fictitious force of gravity to rise to the top end. Alternatively, there is an effect outside the wormhole whereby there is no gravitational pull on the outside between top and bottom - or some combination of the two. For your wormhole to work for long range transport, I think there have to be gravitation effects within the wormhole.
Ares Land
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Ares Land »

KathTheDragon wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:38 pm
KathTheDragon wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:22 am
Ares Land wrote: Sat Jan 30, 2021 11:23 pm

<snip>
Oh, ok, that makes sense.
After thinking about this a bit more, I'm unconvinced that the problem even exists. After all, isn't the interior of the wormhole supposed to be smooth, continuous spacetime? As far as any region of spacetime that intersects the mass's path is concerned, the mass enters and exits perfectly legitimately, so conservation of mass should be satisfied.
The problem is, the mass may emerge at a place where, for instance, gravitational potential is different.
Or one end of the wormhole might be aboard a ship moving near lightspeed: mass increases at relativistic velocities, so a 1kg mass would be, say, 2kg on the other side. Something must compensate for the loss in mass energy.
Last edited by Ares Land on Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ares Land
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Ares Land »

Richard W wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:27 pm
Ares Land wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:35 pm
Richard W wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:18 am If you don't hurl the stone into the bottom end fast, surely it will just come to a halt and then fall out of the bottom end. Aren't potential energy differences a big problem with several types of transporter?
Yes, conservation of mass and energy in general is a problem whenever you have anything like a transporter.

In that example, yes, you have the same problem if you just drop the stone; it keeps falling through the bottom end, then through the top end, gaining potential energy each time.
No. When you drop it into the bottom end, it has to overcome the very real fictitious force of gravity to rise to the top end. Alternatively, there is an effect outside the wormhole whereby there is no gravitational pull on the outside between top and bottom - or some combination of the two. For your wormhole to work for long range transport, I think there have to be gravitation effects within the wormhole.
I don't think Earth gravitational pull applies once you're inside the wormhole
. Though again I don't really master the physics there.

I mostly put the mass constraint here because people better at physics than I am say there's one.
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by zompist »

Ares Land wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 4:57 pm I don't think Earth gravitational pull applies once you're inside the wormhole. (Though again I don't really master the physics there. )
I think it does. A wormhole is just a distortion in the fabric of spacetime. Gravity is... a distortion in the fabric of spacetime.

You've seen those neat depictions of spacetime as a 2-dimensional space, where gravity is represented as that surface being bent down into a well. That allows us to directly visualize gravity as that distortion, and allows us to picture objects as simply responding to the local curvature, rather than communing at a distance with the center of mass. If the local surface is bent, they fall down into the well. (Or orbit it, if they have enough velocity.)

A wormhole is just a little local well that happens to be a tunnel to another part of the surface. But it's built into the surface-- which means that it perfectly reflects gravity at that spot. The wormhole doesn't make the surface discontinuous, just wildly bent.

Again, objects respond to local curvature. They don't know that they're in a wormhole or not; they just move 'downward'.

(All this is a totally non-quantum-mechanical way of looking at things, and therefore ultimately wrong. But there is no QM theory of gravity yet, much less one of wormholes...)
Richard W
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Re: Yttes, or the Big Potato Galactic Empire

Post by Richard W »

zompist wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 5:19 pm A wormhole is just a little local well that happens to be a tunnel to another part of the surface. But it's built into the surface-- which means that it perfectly reflects gravity at that spot. The wormhole doesn't make the surface discontinuous, just wildly bent.
I'm having trouble visualising the walls of the wormhole. Perhaps they just don't work with 2 space-like dimensions. I've a feeling the interior of the interstellar wormhole would be at higher gravitational potential energy, so one should imagine a handle rising from the surface and rejoining it. Possibly the correct model is a flyover, with nasty edge effects that travellers avoid like the plague.
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