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Re: Telpahké: the thread

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:11 pm
by Salmoneus
dewrad wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:04 pm
It should be noted however that this calendar has no use in everyday life by any culture in the civilised world. If you ask a Carastan for the current year he will say 'the 271st year in the reign of Gesostinos IX the Perplexed', while a Tagorese merchant from Yɛṃ Tǝlar will respond that it's 'year three in the seventh indiction of Mbrɔḥ Cɛṃ'. In the Spice Islands themselves, the Somíl Islands generally use variations on the Tariññese 'spoke and wheel' count, in which the current year would be 'the third lion (year) of the seventh wheel'. Each state in the Sórtay Islands used to name each year according to the ruling archons at the time, which still holds true for most internal matters. However, it is more common to number years since the Treaty of the Forests (see below)- under which count the current year is 319.
Thank you for reminding me about indictions! I need to think about calendars...
Incidentally, is Gesostinos actually very long-lived, or has she been Occulted in some way?
I've also called it a prolegomenon because I'm pretentious like that.
Hard not to approve of that reasoning.
Taxaria doesn't get involved much in the story of the Spice Islands directly, but has always been a major motor of transcontinental trade. The great silver mines of Kɨṅgrao financed the insatiable Tagorese appetite for western silks, slaves and spices until the money ran out in the twelth century, precipitating the first international financial crisis.
Conworlds need more international financial crises, and indeed mining problems can help cause them. Is Kingrao this world's equivalent of Potosí? Have you done any research on how quickly a big mine can run out? How much warning would people have?

('Tagorese' is the adjective for 'Taxaria'?)

Oh, and is that a Fractal Terrains map?


Prehistory: -5000 to -500

While archaeology provides evidence of humans traversing and visiting the Spice Islands since at least the end of the last glacial maximum, the first firm evidence of permanent settlement we have is from approximately six and a half millenia ago. These settlers from the Adeian mainland were clearly early agriculturalists, with pottery working, domesticated dogs and goats and a crop package incorporating wheat and barley. Based on their artifacts, we can confidently state that they originated on the east coast of the Mafreti peninsula, and initial settlement was on the northernmost of the Sóntay Islands.
I wonder how many of us have a Last Glacial Maximum? I certainly do, but I wonder whether that's just a Eurocentric prejudice (would a conworld written by a Nigerian automatically have one?) On the other hand, it is an excellent excuse for things to start to happen, historically. [a further idea: what if civilisation develops before the LGM? Makes me curious how minimal the last glacial minimum was...]

Their population density remained low, and their technology remained relatively 'primitive', losing pottery and even textile manufacture.
Do you have real-world parallels for this in mind? I'd have thought ceramics and textiles could remain, once invented, even when the social structure necessary to develop them had faded. But of course, it's certainly possible to lose technologies in extreme circumstances. I would think the geography would play a part here: the insular nature of the area could reduce society into individual pockets too small to support much development.
(A quick ethnographic note: Telmonan humans do not have quite the same range of phenotypes as Terrestrial humans do: everyone's pretty much a shade of brown. However, the Impar and the natives of Rascana have noticeably darker skin than Adeians do- approximately the difference between (say) southern Indians and Middle Easterners. The displaced natives ended up as hunter-gatherers again in the forests in the interior of the islands where as sokór, they gave rise to tales of the little pale men of the forests.)
Hah. My own austronesian-inspired island also has its lingering short and pale-skinned aboriginees...

The ravaged Mafreti peninsula was then invaded from the north by a rather marginal Achaunese-speaking state led by an exceptional young king of great military talent. Açirnu of Jalīda conquered the whole of the Mafreti peninsula, the Laida Valley in Mailona and Cureia. And then he died abruptly, leaving a lot of people looking at each other in a very hostile manner.
I see what you did there...



Sorry it's taken (/taking) so long to get to reading this. It's a really impressive piece of conworlding. Two strengths in my opinion are the way you find an appropriate middle-ground between internal/subjective and external/objective viewpoints, and the way you incorporate ecological and sociological processes, which many creators seem to forget about...

Re: Telpahké: the thread

Posted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:08 pm
by dhok
Salmoneus wrote: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:11 pm
dewrad wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:04 pm Prehistory: -5000 to -500

While archaeology provides evidence of humans traversing and visiting the Spice Islands since at least the end of the last glacial maximum, the first firm evidence of permanent settlement we have is from approximately six and a half millenia ago. These settlers from the Adeian mainland were clearly early agriculturalists, with pottery working, domesticated dogs and goats and a crop package incorporating wheat and barley. Based on their artifacts, we can confidently state that they originated on the east coast of the Mafreti peninsula, and initial settlement was on the northernmost of the Sóntay Islands.
I wonder how many of us have a Last Glacial Maximum? I certainly do, but I wonder whether that's just a Eurocentric prejudice (would a conworld written by a Nigerian automatically have one?) On the other hand, it is an excellent excuse for things to start to happen, historically. [a further idea: what if civilisation develops before the LGM? Makes me curious how minimal the last glacial minimum was...]
Arguably, ours did. The Little Ice Age would probably have kept on going had we not discovered the wonders of burning fossil fuels to industrialize.

But that might have been a case of timing. It's easy to imagine an alternative situation where a number of large volcanic eruptions took place around, say, 700 AD and precipitated an ice age. How long does it take for ice sheets to advance? Under that timeline, would we have seen Stockholm under ice by 1800? What about London?

(would also be interesting to imagine a conworld in which industrialization-precipitated global warming starts during a glacial maximum. Fifteen thousand years ago, there were ice sheets as far south as Chicago...though I also vaguely recall that the climactic bands south of the ice sheets were very narrow, so that you had tundra down to about Peoria, then taiga only to about Kentucky, then deciduous forest through Tennessee, and New Orleans wasn't all that much colder than it currently is.)

This is awesome stuff, by the way.

Re: Telpahké: the thread

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 9:41 am
by cedh
dhok wrote: Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:08 pm This is awesome stuff, by the way.
Quoted for truth. I'm very much looking forward to reading more!

Re: Telpahké: the thread - NP the script

Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:41 am
by dewrad
akamchinjir wrote: Thu Oct 11, 2018 2:36 pm That's gorgeous.

About speakers of mutually unintelligible variants writing more or less the same---very conservative spelling is something, but I wouldn't have thought it'd get you all the way.

[...]

To turn that into a question---do you have any (political, cultural) forces that would push people to write in mutually intelligible ways despite lexical and syntactic differences?
While the example of Chinese was certainly something of a factor here, I have to admit that my inspiration actually comes mainly from the Romance languages circa 700 CE. For example, if people say /ʒeˈte/, /dʒetˈtare/, /ʃej'tar/, /jitˈtari/, /eˈtʃar/ etc but all write this word as iactare; do they think of themselves as speaking "the same" language? I wouldn't say that the current situation of written Telpahké is sustainable long-term: it's probably around now that people are starting to reach the opinion that hey, maybe they actually speak a different language on Himúǝk to that spoken on Aníθ.

As an example, the word Image (transliterated ce-ṡ-ˈcē-la according to the above scheme) is variously pronounced /sɛhˈsiǝl/, /ɕɛʔˈɕiɛl/, /ʃeʃˈʃejl/, /tsǝˈtsʰajʎ/, /tʃeˈʃtʃeːlǝ/ or /sǝxˈsjaːw/ (the first is the north-eastern variant found on Paríf and neighbouring islands) - all of which derive from an Old Telpahké cecʰēli.

I don't think inter-island institutions are strong enough to enforce a single "standard": there's no equivalent to the Catholic Church or the Chinese Imperial bureaucracy here. I envision smaller regional standards emerging/being in the process of emerging, based on the prestige dialects of each smaller island group.
WeepingElf wrote: Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:01 pm All this is beautiful. Of course, it is strongly reminiscent of Indonesia, but that is IMHO not a bad thing. This creates an atmosphere where everything seems to make sense. I like that!
Thanks :) I have to confess that Indonesia has not really been a conscious inspiration here: the language only really gained an Austronesian-style alignment by accident. Partially this is due to a lack of good, accessible resources on Indonesian native cultures/traditional daily life, while there are plenty on India, Japan and (as it happens) the Aztecs, who are my main three sources of inspiration for Imparin culture. Of course, given the similarities between the geography, geology and climate of Indonesia and the Spice Islands, a large degree of similarity is inevitable: these are going to be wet-rice cultivating canoe-using builders in wood who don't wear a great deal, not barley-and-cattle agriculturalists with clinker-built longships living in stone castles and wearing furs.
Salmoneus wrote: Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:11 pm
dewrad wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 12:04 pm
It should be noted however that this calendar has no use in everyday life by any culture in the civilised world. If you ask a Carastan for the current year he will say 'the 271st year in the reign of Gesostinos IX the Perplexed', while a Tagorese merchant from Yɛṃ Tǝlar will respond that it's 'year three in the seventh indiction of Mbrɔḥ Cɛṃ'. In the Spice Islands themselves, the Somíl Islands generally use variations on the Tariññese 'spoke and wheel' count, in which the current year would be 'the third lion (year) of the seventh wheel'. Each state in the Sórtay Islands used to name each year according to the ruling archons at the time, which still holds true for most internal matters. However, it is more common to number years since the Treaty of the Forests (see below)- under which count the current year is 319.
Thank you for reminding me about indictions! I need to think about calendars...
Incidentally, is Gesostinos actually very long-lived, or has she been Occulted in some way?
Gesostinos IX ascended the ancient throne of Tailanis 271 years ago and "disappeared" with no heirs a mere eighteen months later. The common people were told that Gesostinos had departed on a quest (left unspecified) for the benefit of his beloved subjects, leaving the control of the empire in the hands of the nobles and the priestly hierarchy until his eventual triumphal return. Of course, everyone was aware that Gesostinos IX was both a) horrifying deformed as a result of inbreeding that would make even the Hapsburgs blush and b) as mad as a box of frogs. A polite fiction is maintained that he is still alive and well, and will return when the gods will it, but in the interim real power has been entrusted to the Patriarch of Carasta. Strictly temporarily, of course.
I've also called it a prolegomenon because I'm pretentious like that.
Hard not to approve of that reasoning.
Taxaria doesn't get involved much in the story of the Spice Islands directly, but has always been a major motor of transcontinental trade. The great silver mines of Kɨṅgrao financed the insatiable Tagorese appetite for western silks, slaves and spices until the money ran out in the twelth century, precipitating the first international financial crisis.
Conworlds need more international financial crises, and indeed mining problems can help cause them. Is Kingrao this world's equivalent of Potosí? Have you done any research on how quickly a big mine can run out? How much warning would people have?

('Tagorese' is the adjective for 'Taxaria'?)
"Tagorese" is an anglicisation of tǝɣraḥ, the ethnic autonym. Taxaria, while similar-looking, is unrelated and is derived from a Chadati language.

Good question about Kingrao and how quickly a Potosí-like mountain can run out- I'll have to look into it. It could have interesting ramifications.
Oh, and is that a Fractal Terrains map?
No, all my own work. I've never liked what Fractal Terrains spits out.
Prehistory: -5000 to -500

While archaeology provides evidence of humans traversing and visiting the Spice Islands since at least the end of the last glacial maximum, the first firm evidence of permanent settlement we have is from approximately six and a half millenia ago. These settlers from the Adeian mainland were clearly early agriculturalists, with pottery working, domesticated dogs and goats and a crop package incorporating wheat and barley. Based on their artifacts, we can confidently state that they originated on the east coast of the Mafreti peninsula, and initial settlement was on the northernmost of the Sóntay Islands.
I wonder how many of us have a Last Glacial Maximum? I certainly do, but I wonder whether that's just a Eurocentric prejudice (would a conworld written by a Nigerian automatically have one?) On the other hand, it is an excellent excuse for things to start to happen, historically. [a further idea: what if civilisation develops before the LGM? Makes me curious how minimal the last glacial minimum was...]
It's basically just there as a convenient "year zero" kind of thing- I'm not entirely sure what happened before the LGM, or where humans were precisely.

Their population density remained low, and their technology remained relatively 'primitive', losing pottery and even textile manufacture.
Do you have real-world parallels for this in mind? I'd have thought ceramics and textiles could remain, once invented, even when the social structure necessary to develop them had faded. But of course, it's certainly possible to lose technologies in extreme circumstances. I would think the geography would play a part here: the insular nature of the area could reduce society into individual pockets too small to support much development.
My model here was the Moriori and some of the Phillipine hill-tribes. Jared Diamond refers to this kind of thing happening in Collapse, which is where I took the idea from.
(A quick ethnographic note: Telmonan humans do not have quite the same range of phenotypes as Terrestrial humans do: everyone's pretty much a shade of brown. However, the Impar and the natives of Rascana have noticeably darker skin than Adeians do- approximately the difference between (say) southern Indians and Middle Easterners. The displaced natives ended up as hunter-gatherers again in the forests in the interior of the islands where as sokór, they gave rise to tales of the little pale men of the forests.)
Hah. My own austronesian-inspired island also has its lingering short and pale-skinned aboriginees...
The sokór are, on average taller than the Impar. Nothing to do with Elves at all.

The ravaged Mafreti peninsula was then invaded from the north by a rather marginal Achaunese-speaking state led by an exceptional young king of great military talent. Açirnu of Jalīda conquered the whole of the Mafreti peninsula, the Laida Valley in Mailona and Cureia. And then he died abruptly, leaving a lot of people looking at each other in a very hostile manner.
I see what you did there...
One thing I rather enjoy doing is deliberately "echoing" terrestrial history and then turning it on its head. As if Alexander the Great's campaigns led not to the foundation of a Hellenistic culture accross the Middle East, but rather ecological and religious disaster extinguishing an entire civilisation. The conflict between Phareitus and Tailanis owes not a little to Carthage and Rome, but ends up with "Rome" being utterly subjugated by a third party. Also, silk in Telmona is not a product of the "exotic Orient", but is a western product much craved by the China-analogue.
Sorry it's taken (/taking) so long to get to reading this. It's a really impressive piece of conworlding. Two strengths in my opinion are the way you find an appropriate middle-ground between internal/subjective and external/objective viewpoints, and the way you incorporate ecological and sociological processes, which many creators seem to forget about...
It kind of reflects my own interests in history, I have to admit. Battles and military history bore me, so they tend not to get much emphasis.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - NP the script

Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:59 am
by mèþru
LGM refers to the maximum of the last glacial period. A glacial period occurs when both polar ice caps spread to land. The Little Ice Age was not the LGM of Earth; it happened during the current interglacial period. The real LGM happened about 26,000 years ago.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - NP the script

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 4:15 pm
by dewrad
I have four or so posts (almost) ready to go, so what would people like to see next? The options are:
  • Imparin naming customs and how "families" work
  • Nominal morphology
  • The calendar
  • Medicine and what the Imparin "humoral" system is

Re: Telpahké: the thread - NP the script

Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:18 pm
by Frislander
Nominal Morphology

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Nominal Morphology

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:18 pm
by dewrad
Frislander wrote: Tue Oct 23, 2018 6:18 pm Nominal Morphology
Your wish is my command:

Telpahké morphology

Telpahké, compared to its parent language and closest relatives, is a fairly lightly inflected language. Unfortunately, however, this does not mean that the language's morphology is simple. Pervasive morphophonological alternations including stress-induced apophony and syncope, hinted at above, make the surface instantiations of inflected words less than predictable from their citation forms.

This series of posts will deal solely with forms- usage will follow later. Rather than attempting to info-dump all the morphophonological details in one go to start with, I'll instead try to point it out and explain it as we encounter them. So, let's look at the morphology of nouns, pronouns, adjectives and verbs in Modern Telpahké.

Nouns

Telpahké nouns distinguish three cases and two numbers. The marking of case is the same regardless of number, so we shall examine that first (also, number marking is what is technically known as a "pain in the arse").

Case

The three cases of Telpahké are the absolutive, the ergative and the accusative. The case inflections marking these three can be represented as -Ø, - and -, respectively. And this is where the fun complication starts. Essentially, the difficulties arise due to the interplay of a mobile stress and stress-induced vowel alternation.

Telpahké nouns can be divided into two classes, based on whether the stress is fixed (the "static" class), or whether it is mobile (the "dynamic" class).
  1. Static nouns are straightforward: the stress is always fixed on the final syllable of the word, made simpler given that the final syllable is also open. As an example, let us take the noun amá 'mother': the absolutive is amá, the ergative is amáθ and the accusative is amá. Note the syncretism between the absolutive and the accusative here.
  2. Dynamic nouns are somewhat more complex. They can be subdivided into two classes which, borrowing terminology from Proto-Indo-European studies, I refer to as "hysterodynamic" and "proterodynamic":
    1. Hysterodynamic nouns are consistent in having the stress towards the end of the noun (hence the name): on the final syllable in the absolutive and accusative cases, and on the penultimate syllable in the ergative. An example here is yíǝl 'chicken': the absolutive is yiǝl, the ergative is yíǝloθ and the accusative is yeló.
    2. Proterodynamic nouns, however, shift the stress "backwards" in the case of the absolutive case. For example, let's look at sátol 'soldier': absolutive sátol, ergative sɔtóloθ and accusative sɔtoló.
Here's where we run into the first complication: notice the alternations yiǝl~yeló and sátol~sɔtoló. The astute will remember here the table of vowels in a previous post:

stressedunstressed
áɔ
ɛ́a
ɛ́ɛ
ée
ɔ́o
óo
íǝe
íi
úǝo
úu

As can be seen, the only ambiguity is whether stressed ɛ́ becomes unstressed a or ɛ: this is not synchronically predictable. Aside from this, going from stressed to unstressed is straightforward, but the other way is more problematic. For example, in theory the ergative of sátol could be any of sɔtɔ́loθ, sɔtóloθ or sɔtúǝloθ: again, the correct outcome is not predictable synchronically. Ironically, this is about the only area where the native script has an advantage over the romanisation.

A further complication is the nature of the vowel of the inflection (the thematic vowel): yet again, this is not synchronically predictable. For "regular" dynamic nouns there are four options:

1234
ergativeɛθ
accusativeɛ́ééó

Let's take an entry from my lexicon file: "ɛ́fal np3 'home'; stem afɛ́l-". This basically tells me that ɛ́fal 'home' is a class 3 (3) proterodynamic (p) noun (n), and its ergative stem is afɛ́l-. Thus, absolutive ɛ́fal, ergative afɛ́l, accusative afalé.

To summarise, to decline a regular noun you need to know the following:
  • If it's a static noun or not. If it is, bung a -θ on the end for the ergative and call it a day.
  • If it's not a static noun, is it hysterodynamic or proterodynamic? If it's hysterodynamic, you will also need to know which class the thematic vowel is.
  • Finally, if it's proterodynamic, you will need to know not only the class of the thematic vowel, but also the ergative stem.
As I believe I have said elsewhere, describing a category as "regular" depressingly implies the existence of a category which can be described as "irregular". So it is unfortunately with Telpahké nouns.

The largest class of irregular nouns are historically derived from those nouns which ended in a nasal consonant in the parent language. For example, pallú 'slave' at first glance appears to be an unobjectionable static noun with a stressed word-final open syllable. It isn't: it's a class 1 hysterodynamic noun which inflects pallú~pallúnaθ~pallunɛ́ - essentially the etymological n was lost when word-final, but reappears in derived forms.

Similarly, a noun like harán 'script, writing' is a totally normal class 1 hysterodynamic noun which inflects harán~harámaθ~harɔmɛ́: here etymological m has become n when word-final, but reverts to m when inflected. In the same vein, we have words like fɛ́n 'fishing net', wherein an etymological ŋ has become n word-finally, so fɛ́n~fɛ́ŋoθ~faŋó.

Another significant group of dynamic nouns masquerading as static nouns are those ending in íǝ or úǝ. While a most nouns ending in these sounds are static nouns (such as fɔríǝ 'lightning'), an annoyingly significant number aren't. The ones that aren't static nouns generally have an underlying semivowel as part of their stem. For example, moníǝ 'dagger' is monɛ́yaθ in the ergative and monayɛ́ in the accusative. This group is particularly important as the common pluralising affixes -míǝ and -θíǝ inflect in this way.

The final group of irregular nouns to watch out for are those which end in a final unstressed vowel. All of these are actually proterodynamic nouns that have lost a word-final consonant (most of the time h) which resurfaces in the inflected forms. For example, the original name of pirate queen whom we met earlier, Fúǝnko, falls in this class: Fúǝnko~Fonkɔ́heθ~Fonkohé. Unfortunately, because unstressed vowels before h are particularly prone to syncope, things like the paradigm of míǝro 'boulder' exist: míǝro~maróhaθ~merhɛ́. (No, maróhaθ isn't a typo. Unstressed e becomes a before r followed by a stressed vowel. Sorry.)

Speaking of syncope, there is a class of nouns whose final consonants are r or l that appear to undergo syncope in their inflected forms. For example, súǝmar 'householder' inflects súǝmar~súǝmraθ~somrɛ́. As it happens, diachronically this is not a case of syncope: the ancestral form was jʰōmra. What has actually happened is a case of anaptyxis in the absolutive case after the loss of word-final unstressed vowels.

Number

Native speakers of Telpahké will tell you happily that number marking on nouns is entirely optional (not neccessarily in that manner, of course) and that arún can be used as easily for one coconut as it can for a whole pile of them. They are lying.

Number marking on nouns is obligatory in Telpahké, just not in the same contexts as it is in English. If you were to point at a pile of coconuts and exclaim "arún!", natives would gently correct you (as one does to people who get overly excited about coconuts) to arunmá, which is the correct plural form. However, if you were to chirp "arunmá hin!" on espying only three coconuts, you would be again corrected to arún hin. Supposing this psychotic break from reality were to continue and you saw a rat eating the coconuts; duly concerned, you might turn to your companions and say "kóreθ ehkaná in arunmá", informing them that a rat is eating the coconuts. They would again correct you to arún, as number is already marked on the verb. By this point, entirely sick of the farcical manner in which number is encoded, you might mutter to yourself "aruné noθíl i ɛsá", stating that you hate coconuts. Again, you would be corrected to arunmá, because here number is not marked on the verb as coconuts are no longer the subject. At this point, you would be justified in using one of the coconuts to thump your interlocutor.

Those who are following along at home might think that they now have the entire number thing in Telpahké sussed: the suffix is -, and it produces a static noun ("Please, sir! Can I have a house point sir!"). Wrong. ("No, Jenkins, you cannot.")

Unfortunately, the picture is far more complex than this. The marking of number has inherited a number of quirks and oddities from the parent language, which Telpahke has only made more impenetrable. In addition to using a range suffixes which are not entirely predictable synchronically, there are also vestiges of the parent language's inverse number marking, whereby the plural is marked by removing rather than adding a suffix. Furthermore, a small yet significant number of nouns mark plurality by means of reduplication, which soundchange often renders impenetrable. From an inflectional point of view, plural nouns mark case in the same way as singular nouns; and it is possibly best to consider plural marking as derivational rather than inflectional morphology. Nevertheless, let us look at each of these strategies in turn:

Suffixing plurals

There are five plural suffixes in common use. They are not interchangeable, and the suffix a noun selects is an lexical property of that noun. That is, you can't pluralise arún as *aruní just because you fancy it: arún can only select - to become arunmá.

It should come as no surprise that it is not entirely possible to predict which suffix a noun will take synchronically. However, there is some semantic correlation between the suffixes:
  • -k is most commonly used for human referents: sátol 'soldier' > sɔtólok 'soldiers'. It is formed by replacing the θ of the ergative with k, and produces proterodynamic nouns from hysterodynamic nouns and hysterodynamic nouns from static nouns - both of class 2. Thus, for example, static aθá 'father' becomes hysterodynamic aθák 'fathers' (with ergative aθákɛθ and accusative aθɔké); and hysterodynamic sokúr 'friend' becomes proterodynamic sokúrak 'friends' (with ergative sokurɛ́kɛθ and accusative sokuraké).
  • -má generally patterns with organic, non-animal objects: fruits, trees, plants and so on. It creates static nouns, as seen with arún 'coconut' > arunmá 'coconuts' above. It is added directly to the absolutive stem.
  • -θíǝ and -míǝ are worth treating together as they both denote plurals of inanimate objects, the distinction being that -θíǝ (or -tíǝ after a consonant) is generally reserved for man-made objects. Thus kɛ́ma 'trunk' > kamamíǝ 'trunks' but suǝn 'house' > sontíǝ 'houses'. The resultant forms are declined like moníǝ above.
  • is a bit of an all-purpose leftover pluralising suffix, but it is particularly common with non-human animals, e.g. pehɛ́r 'cat' > peharí 'cats'. The resultant form is a hysterodynamic class-1 noun which declines like pallú above.
Suffixing singulars

Nouns which remove a suffix to indicate the plural (or add a suffix to indicate the singular, if you prefer) are fortunately not quite as common as they are in Tarì. They do, however, form some of the oldest strata of the language's vocabulary and again, the relationship between the singular and the plural form is often less than transparent. For example, there is fénar ‘tree’ > fen 'trees', fɛ́łtol ‘foreigner’ > feɫt 'foreigners', rohł 'pig' > rok 'pigs'.

Reduplicating plurals

It is worth mentioning that a) nouns which use reduplication to form the plural are among the most common in the language, such as siǝl 'woman' and tuǝn 'man' (pl. sɛhsíǝl and tahtúǝn, resp.) and b) have often been so obscured by soundchange that it might just be worth thinking of them as being suppletive anyway. It is also worth noting that totally obscure reduplication marking grammatical oppositions will also become an issue when we get to verbs. Hurrah!

Re: Telpahké: the thread

Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2018 4:42 pm
by Salmoneus
dewrad wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 6:38 pm Empires and "Heroes": 253 to 900
You know, the downside with you writing things that are so realistic and well thought out is that it's difficult to make any constructive comment on them...

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Nominal Morphology

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:36 am
by evmdbm
Supposing this psychotic break from reality were to continue and you saw a rat eating the coconuts; duly concerned, you might turn to your companions and say "kóreθ ehkaná in arunmá", informing them that a rat is eating the coconuts. They would again correct you to arún, as number is already marked on the verb. By this point, entirely sick of the farcical manner in which number is encoded, you might mutter to yourself "aruné noθíl i ɛsá", stating that you hate coconuts. Again, you would be corrected to arunmá, because here number is not marked on the verb as coconuts are no longer the subject.
I thought I had you then I lost you. Possibly I need a bit of verbal morphology or explanation of the uses of the three cases, but appreciate that you don't have this quite ready to go. Presumably in the sentence "kóreθ ehkaná in arunmá" kóreθ is the rat and is in the ergative case. Ergative systems link the object of the transitive verb and the subject of the intransitive as both are in the absolutive. Since to eat is transitive the rat must be the ergative subject and the coconuts presumably the absolutive object. This why I got lost because you said the coconuts were the subject, although I can see that if Telpakhke has polypersonal agreement the number of the object might be marked on the verb (but then why is it different if I hate coconuts rather than eat them?). Sorry, I think I'm missing something obvious here, but I can't see why the coconuts are treated differently in the two sentences.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Nominal Morphology

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:07 am
by dhok
evmdbm wrote: Fri Oct 26, 2018 7:36 am
Supposing this psychotic break from reality were to continue and you saw a rat eating the coconuts; duly concerned, you might turn to your companions and say "kóreθ ehkaná in arunmá", informing them that a rat is eating the coconuts. They would again correct you to arún, as number is already marked on the verb. By this point, entirely sick of the farcical manner in which number is encoded, you might mutter to yourself "aruné noθíl i ɛsá", stating that you hate coconuts. Again, you would be corrected to arunmá, because here number is not marked on the verb as coconuts are no longer the subject.
I thought I had you then I lost you. Possibly I need a bit of verbal morphology or explanation of the uses of the three cases, but appreciate that you don't have this quite ready to go. Presumably in the sentence "kóreθ ehkaná in arunmá" kóreθ is the rat and is in the ergative case. Ergative systems link the object of the transitive verb and the subject of the intransitive as both are in the absolutive. Since to eat is transitive the rat must be the ergative subject and the coconuts presumably the absolutive object. This why I got lost because you said the coconuts were the subject, although I can see that if Telpakhke has polypersonal agreement the number of the object might be marked on the verb (but then why is it different if I hate coconuts rather than eat them?). Sorry, I think I'm missing something obvious here, but I can't see why the coconuts are treated differently in the two sentences.
Likely an instance of split ergativity. If I had to hazard a stab in the dark, I'd guess that Telpahké may have Dyirbal-style split ergativity, where sentences involving an "I" or "you" are accusative in alignment and sentences with all third-person participants are ergative in alignment; that would match the scraps we have to go on.

Split-ergativity is not uncommon. An absolutive-ergative-accusative case split in nouns is attested in many languages, like Hittite or (I think?) Kurdish, where the "nominative" or "absolutive" acts as a nominative in accusative-aligned sentences and as an absolutive in ergative-aligned.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Nominal Morphology

Posted: Fri Oct 26, 2018 8:46 am
by evmdbm
aruné would be accusative case, yes, so I concede the verb might not mark the number of accusative objects in accusative aligned sentences, but the verb might mark the number of the absolutive subject in those sentences. I think that runs up against the problem that if third party sentences are ergative in alignment, the absolutive coconuts are still the object, aren't they?

I will await the definitive answer.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Nominal Morphology

Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:09 am
by dewrad
I can understand your confusion! However, Telpahké is not an ergative language. The alignment is closer to the Terrestrial Austronesian alignment (I mention this very much in passing in the first post). A much more in-depth discussion of how this precisely works will have to wait for a later post, but very briefly:

kóreθ ehkaná in arún
kór-eθ ehkan-á in arún-Ø
rat-ERG eat-PV PRS.PL coconut-ABS
"A rat is eating the coconuts"

Here, the verb is in the patient voice (PV), which is used when the semantic patient of the clause is also the topic. This triggers the ergative case on the agent, and the patient is found in the absolutive case. The verb agrees for number with its absolutive argument.

arunmá noθíl i ɛsá
arun-má-Ø noθ-íl i ɛsá-Ø
coconut-PL-ACC hate-AV PRS.SG 1sg-ABS
"I hate coconuts"

In this sentence, the topic is no longer coconuts, but rather I. Here the topic is the agent of the clause, therefore the verb is in the agent voice (AV), and the patient (the coconuts) is in the accusative case. Again, the verb agrees with the absolutive argument.

For what it's worth, Telpahké's alignment does not work precisely like the Austronesian alignment: in some ways the verbal system works much more like the New Indo-Aryan languages.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Nominal Morphology

Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:17 am
by evmdbm
Ah. All clear now. At some later point in a later post you'll have to tell us how topicalisation works then.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - NP the script

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:41 pm
by Xwtek
dewrad wrote: Sun Oct 14, 2018 10:41 am Thanks :) I have to confess that Indonesia has not really been a conscious inspiration here: the language only really gained an Austronesian-style alignment by accident. Partially this is due to a lack of good, accessible resources on Indonesian native cultures/traditional daily life, while there are plenty on India, Japan and (as it happens) the Aztecs, who are my main three sources of inspiration for Imparin culture. Of course, given the similarities between the geography, geology and climate of Indonesia and the Spice Islands, a large degree of similarity is inevitable: these are going to be wet-rice cultivating canoe-using builders in wood who don't wear a great deal, not barley-and-cattle agriculturalists with clinker-built longships living in stone castles and wearing furs.
While Indonesian traditionally won't wear fur. Western Indonesian (i.e. Java, Sumatra, Kalimantan, and Celebes) is actually conservative about clothing (Dayak and Batak is the exception). A man in Malayic cultures (Malay, Minangkabau, etc) almost never shirtless. Unless you're a farmer, you won't be shirtless in Java, too. So if you want to base it from Indonesia, it's better to use Modern European standard of modesty. It's not far off.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Nominal Morphology

Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:17 am
by mèþru
Shirtlessness is much more of a Melanesian and Polynesian custom AFAIK.

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Personal Pronouns

Posted: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:45 am
by dewrad
Personal pronouns

In the first and second persons, the personal pronouns of Telpahké are complex. As well as marking case and number, they grammaticalise several distinctions not found elsewhere in the language: politeness, gender and (in the first person plural) clusivity. Morphologically, however, they are relatively straightforward, declining in exactly the same way as nouns. This is because historically that is exactly what they are.

The personal pronoun system seen in Telpahké bears no resemblance in either form or use to the pronouns of Tarì, or even to that of very early Old Telpahké. It appears that the original "simple" personal pronouns (reconstructed for Proto-Atzato-Tarian as 1sg *ni, 2sg *ri, 1pl * and 2pl *lay) fell out of use as general-purpose from around the third century onwards. Not coincidentally, this is also the period during which Imparin society became far more stratified, with the crystallisation of the caste system described elsewhere. Essentially, nominal circumlocutions used to indicate respect or deference displaced simple pronouns, in the same way that (for example), Portuguese você 'you' derived from Old Portuguese vossa mercee 'your mercy'.

The resultant system, as might be expected, is both highly complex and greatly divergent cross-dialectally: for example, ɛsá means 'I' in the north-east of the archipelago, but the etymological equivalent on Himúǝk, ǝɕã, means 'you'. What follows is the pronominal system current among educated urban speakers from Paríf, Korhúǝ and Rihtár.

First and second person pronouns vary along several axes. The main division is into "intimate" and "non-intimate" pronouns, with the latter being further subdivided into "pejorative" and "deferential", and the former being divided according to relative age. This sounds complex, but essentially encodes the relationship between the speaker and the interlocutor on five total levels:
  1. "intimate younger" indicates that the interlocutor is younger than the speaker
  2. "intimate peer" indicates that the interlocutor is of the same age as the speaker
  3. "intimate older" indicates that the interlocutor is older than the speaker
  4. "pejorative" means that the speaker is of higher social status than the interlocutor, and is not an intimate
  5. "deferential" means that the speaker is of equal or lower social status than the interlocutor, and is not an intimate
The next main axis of variation is gender. Unusually, Telpahké pronouns can vary not just for the gender of the speaker, but also for the interlocutor. For example, a man uses a different first person pronoun when speaking to another man to when he is speaking to a woman.

Finally, in the first person plural there is also a distinction of clusivity: is the interlocutor included or not.

For those counting, that gives at least one hundred distinct combinations (e.g. "a female speaker referring to a younger male intimate"). However, in practice there is a great deal of syncretism: there are nowhere near one hundred distinct lexical items for each possible pronoun.

Because the above scheme of classification is, admittedly, somewhat overwhelming, let's have a look at some paradigms to actually see the system in action.

Singular pronouns

Image

Plural pronouns

Image

Note to the tables: Those cells which have a light blue background are those where the interlocutor is male (or a group of males). Correspondingly, those which are pinkish are those where the interlocutor is female. I am aware that this is sexist. From an Imparin point of view, it's also nonsensical because if there's any colour associated with males then it's yellow, and blue is obviously a feminine colour. So there you go.

(Also, post-upload, I've just noticed that for the female speaker, the "younger interlocutor" second person singular pronouns should be the other way around. Bugger.)

There's a hell of a lot going on here, and frankly it needs breaking down. The fundamental division, as mentioned above, is "intimate" vs "non-intimate" or in native terms ɔhtɛ́hnar vs komíǝ. The category of "intimates" covers family, extended family, childhood friends who are close in age, fellow-members of a society or religious confraternity, members of the same military unit or the crew of the same ship and fellow members of a guild. The category of "non-intimate" covers basically everything else.

To the Impar, the "intimate" classification is based on initiation: the term ɔhtɛ́hnar transparently means 'fellow initiate'. At birth, children are initiated into their family, at adolescence into their age cohort, in adulthood they are initiated into a number of different social organisations. It may be useful to think of "intimate" pronouns as those used within the family first, which are subsequently extended to other domains where some kind of fictive kinship has been created by ritual.

It's worth mentioning that a person can be in a situation where they use either "intimate" or "non-intimate" pronouns dependent on the context. For example, Mokór is a merchant and Hɔθár is a judge. Both are members of the same religious confraternity: indeed Hɔθár presided over Mokór's initiation. When at meetings of the confraternity, they use "intimate" pronouns with each other, albeit sharply distinguishing between their relative status. Later on, Mokór finds himself in the middle of a trade dispute with another merchant, which is taken to a judge for arbitration. It so happens that Hɔθár presides over the case. In this situation, Mokór and Hɔθár use the "non-intimate" pronouns with each other (and the third party).

So, let's look first at the "non-intimate" pronouns, which occupy the bottom two rows in the tables above. These are the pronouns that non-natives learn first. Look at the "higher status" pronouns first. These are the ones used when the interlocutor is of the same status or higher: essentially these are the "polite" pronouns.

In the first person singular, there is no distinction made whether the interlocutor is male or female. Etymologically, sɛ́hlor and sɛhnír mean 'your servant'.

The second person singular pronouns are more interesting: the "neutral" forms are the opposite-sex forms (this will continue to be a thing)- by this a man will refer to a female superior as tohmúǝ, and a woman will similarly refer to a male superior in the same way.

In the plural pronouns, we see tohmúǝ occur again, this time as the "neutral" first person inclusive and the second person. Etymologically, the word derives from an honorific of the archaic word túǝp 'roof' (metonymically used for 'household'), so the original sense was something like "your honourable household", which then became the first person inclusive plural by humbly including oneself in the interlocutor's household. The first person inclusive used by men to groups of other men is etymologically somewhat blunter túǝpir, etymologically just 'your household'.

The exclusive pronouns are worthy of comment: for female speakers, the pronoun is nɛn, etymologically related to Tarì nama 'we (exc.)'. The form used by male speakers is etymologically just means 'your servants'.

The pronouns used for lower-status interlocutors are rather difficult in their connotation. The Impar are generally courteous and friendly with strangers, and will generally defailt to the high-status forms. The low-status forms, however, do not imply greater familiarity, but rather greater distance. A woman will use them to appear haughty, a man to appear aggressive. Note that there are no inclusive first person plural pronouns here: the lower-status pronouns are not used for people that you want to be doing anything with. The female first person forms are interesting here: etymologically they mean 'this household'.

Moving on to the intimate pronouns: those which the Impar use most comfortably.

The first set of pronouns a Telpahké-speaking child learns is the first row on the two tables above: the "intimate older interlocutor" rows. Note that at this stage, there's no gender distinction. Interestingly, these are the "original" pronouns: they are cognate to the personal pronouns in Tarì, and are clearly descended from the Proto-Atzato-Tarian pronominal system. As well, note that there are no second person pronouns in the singular: instead one uses kinship terms (either fictive kinship or real kinship terms).

Generally, children will refer to themselves as ne in all circumstances until about the onset of puberty, although girls will often continue to use ne for longer. It is said that a girl thinks of herself as ne until she has her first child, a boy thinks of himself as ne until his first ejaculation[1]. After this point, the "intimate peer" pronouns take over for most situations, reflecting a move into more peer-structured social activities: you would only refer to yourself as ne after this point when speaking to your parents, grandparents and certain culturally salient aunts and uncles (mother's younger brother, father's elder brother and his wife etc).

From puberty onwards, speakers will start using the intimate-peer pronouns with those who are in their own age cohort: brothers, cousins, friends and so on. It is here that the sharply gendered nature of the pronoun system is most prominent. It is important to note that when speaking to a group of people of mixed genders, it is the opposite-gendered pronouns that are used. A man would only use θokumí to a group of male interlocutors. If a woman were present in the group, he would instead use líǝ.

Finally, the intimate-younger pronouns are, as should be clear by now, used for people who are below one's age cohort. In practice, with people outside the immediate family, they are only really used for children. A twenty-five year old man calling a fifteen year old kímal is either putting the younger man in his place, or is insinuating a sexual relationship with him. Note that there are no first-person pronouns: mirroring the situation with intimate-older pronouns, one refers to oneself using kinship terms (again, real or fictive).

---

[1]This is illustrated by a fairly common (if ribald) joke:

A mother has lost her son and cannot find him. She searches the family compound high and low, calling: setúk, fɔhrá θíǝ, man kímal? 'little one, darling boy, where are you?'

At last she come to the outhouse and finds the door locked. Softly, gently she calls out: setúk, fɔhrá θíǝ, túǝ kímal? 'little one, darling boy, are you in there?'

She hears a voice from inside: θo! ɛ́łot ne! 'go away! I'm busy!'.

She retreats, but returns a little while later to knock at the door of the outhouse again: setúk, fɔhrá θíǝ, kɛt kímal? 'little one, darling boy, are you well?'

Again the voice from inside: mo ket ɛsá! 'I'm fine now!'

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Personal Pronouns

Posted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 6:37 am
by evmdbm
This really is my unattainable counsel of perfection! Having said that....
dewrad wrote: Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:45 am In the first and second persons, the personal pronouns of Telpahké are complex. As well as marking case and number, they grammaticalise several distinctions not found elsewhere in the language: politeness, gender and (in the first person plural) clusivity.
This is different from Japanese, which I'm plagiarising ruthlessly, in that Japanese not only has different personal pronouns for say first person singular - watakushi, watashi, boku, atashi, atakushi and so on, it also has the plain and polite forms of the verb with -masu. Did you base this idea of grammaticalising distinctions of politeness solely in pronouns on any real natlang? When I asked you about the impact of caste on language earlier you said you were looking at Javanese - about which I know nothing. There's nothing here about caste; presumably Mokór and Hɔθár use the intimate peer pronouns in their fraternity, but is there any chance of their being in different castes and that affecting the pronouns they use even outside of the court room?

And why the blank for intimate younger interlocutors? There isn't a blank in the plural. The plural blank for inclusive we with lower status non-intimate I understand (what are doing associating with these people?)

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Personal Pronouns

Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2018 5:29 am
by Xwtek
Javanese speaker (well, not so native, actually. But I'm ethnic Javanese) here. Javanese people is even more extreme than Japanese. Almost every non-loaned content word (and grammatical words too, and even suffixes) changes when the situation changes. It's almost as if you're speaking different languages at the different situation to different people. Usually the more formal word is a loan word from the more respectable language. For example (mripat - netra) (eye), netra comes from Sanskrit while mripat is from Arabic. Austronesian version of that word, mata, is not even considered ngoko (Lowest possible register before you begin using a swear word).

Re: Telpahké: the thread - Personal Pronouns

Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:04 am
by Xwtek
Well, do Aldeia and Rascana also tend to be shirtless (I initially thought that two cultures can't possibly do that)? If one of them do, Telpahke could also follow.

On the other hand, I think your pronoun is too many. Japanese probably only use 5-6 pronouns normally in a single person-number category (Sure you can list 20+ for "I", but most of them is archaic). And, despite Javanese has a more complex system, Javanese only have 4-5 pronouns. Generally, languages with this many pronouns also lack formal/polite 2nd person pronoun. (A honorific title is used instead).

An idea: 2nd person broadcast pronoun. (Used when giving announcement, news, addressing reader on a written book, etc)