Zompist Bboard Again

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2024 3:47 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2024 2:55 pm German has two very similar words, "Drache" and "Drachen", for "dragon" and "kite". In some inflected forms, they're even exactly the same. Now I wonder: why is that so? Does it, perhaps, have to do with Chinese culture or the Chinese language?

Wiktionary suggests one as an alternate form for the other, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Drache with the 'kite' sense derived from the 'dragon' one.

German Wikipedia disagrees - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drache_(Mythologie) for the mythical beast and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drachen for the toy.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2024 4:00 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2024 3:47 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Dec 21, 2024 2:55 pm German has two very similar words, "Drache" and "Drachen", for "dragon" and "kite". In some inflected forms, they're even exactly the same. Now I wonder: why is that so? Does it, perhaps, have to do with Chinese culture or the Chinese language?

Wiktionary suggests one as an alternate form for the other, https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Drache with the 'kite' sense derived from the 'dragon' one.

German Wikipedia disagrees - https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drache_(Mythologie) for the mythical beast and https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drachen for the toy.

But the words are related. Different, yes, but related, and the flying toy is named after the mythological beast.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:28 am
But the words are related. Different, yes, but related, and the flying toy is named after the mythological beast.

Well, my question is how that came to be.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 4:15 am

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 3:28 am
But the words are related. Different, yes, but related, and the flying toy is named after the mythological beast.

Well, my question is how that came to be.

From digging around, it seems that the earliest European kites were ‘dragon kites’, but I can’t find a good account.

Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Dec 22, 2024 5:58 am
From digging around, it seems that the earliest European kites were ‘dragon kites’, but I can’t find a good account.

Thank you!

What are your guys' views on the phonemicity of a contrast between [eː] and [ɛː] in StG? Allegedly this is really spelling pronunciation, a view backed by the fact that actual speakers of StG very often cannot keep the two straight when speaking in length even when they don't speak a northern regiolect, and practically all actual dialects that do have such a contrast do not agree with the supposed distribution of the two in StG.

In my northern regiolect of German, I neutralize the distinction in almost all contexts when speaking. They might be marginally phonemic for some people (even in the north) in Konjunktiv forms like "gäbe". When reading children's books to my son I find myself making the distinction as a spelling pronounciation. So, marginally phonemic at best is what I would say.

For me personally, /eː/ and /ɛː/ are clearly distinct, afaict in all positions except before /ʁ/. And that's natural for me, not just a spelling pronunciation:

lese [leːzə] :: läse [lɛːzə]
gebe [ɡeːbə] :: gäbe [ɡɛːbə]
Seele [zeːlə] :: Säle [zɛːlə]
Belege [bəleːɡə] :: Beläge [bəlɛːɡə]
Hefen [heːfn̩] :: Häfen [hɛːfn̩]
dehnen, denen [deːnn̩] :: Dänen [dɛːnn̩]
sehen, Seen [zeːn̩ ~ zeːən] :: säen [zɛːn̩ ~ zɛːən]

Beeren :: Bären - both [beːɐ̯n ~ beːɐ̯ʁn̩]

I also have /ɛː/ in certain words where the standard language has /eː/, for instance italienisch [ɪtɐljɛːnɪʃ]. If that's phonological, I would guess it's because of the preceding Cj cluster.

My idiolect does not correspond to any typical dialect or regiolect though. It is fairly close to Standard German, with some influence from Ripuarian varieties (I grew up near Cologne) and a few sprinkles from elsewhere (for example, I went to university in Thuringia, where I picked up a backed [ʌ] pronunciation for word-final -er).

But yes, I'd agree that probably a majority of native speakers don't actually make that distinction naturally.

In my idiolect, /eː/ and /ɛː/ are clearly distinct - in all positions.

sehen, Seen [zeːn̩ ~ zeːən]

Is Seen [zeːn̩ ~ zeːən] as well, or is it just sehen that could be [zeːən]? And what's with the syllabic nasal right after a vocalic nucleus? I know it could be pronounced, but it sounds like so much extra articulatory effort.

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2025 11:50 am

sehen, Seen [zeːn̩ ~ zeːən]

Is Seen [zeːn̩ ~ zeːən] as well, or is it just sehen that could be [zeːən]? And what's with the syllabic nasal right after a vocalic nucleus? I know it could be pronounced, but it sounds like so much extra articulatory effort.

Seen is the plural of See, so it is perfectly plausible that See might take a -/ən/ pluralization suffix even though the plural is not written *Seeen.

i always felt german should re-spell Knie to "Knieh" so the plural can be "Kniehe", rather than having /kniː/ and /kniːə/ both spelled the same

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:13 pm i always felt german should re-spell Knie to "Knieh" so the plural can be "Kniehe", rather than having /kniː/ and /kniːə/ both spelled the same

The ambiguity in German final ⟨-ie⟩ means that one cannot know simply from spelling that words like Familie end in /-iːə/.

Zju wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2025 11:50 am

sehen, Seen [zeːn̩ ~ zeːən]

Is Seen [zeːn̩ ~ zeːən] as well, or is it just sehen that could be [zeːən]? And what's with the syllabic nasal right after a vocalic nucleus? I know it could be pronounced, but it sounds like so much extra articulatory effort.

When speaking, both are monosyllabic [ze:n] for me. When I read out loud, <sehen> can be pronounced [zeːən] but <Seen> can only be [ze:n].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2025 10:41 pm

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:13 pm i always felt german should re-spell Knie to "Knieh" so the plural can be "Kniehe", rather than having /kniː/ and /kniːə/ both spelled the same

The ambiguity in German final ⟨-ie⟩ means that one cannot know simply from spelling that words like Familie end in /-iːə/.

For me (and Wiktionary), <Familie> is /faˈmiːli̯ə/.
As for <Knie>, I guess the plural should be <Kniee>. That would feel right to me

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:25 pm For me (and Wiktionary), <Familie> is /faˈmiːli̯ə/

Is there anything that means this can't be /faˈmiːljə/?

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:47 pm

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:25 pm For me (and Wiktionary), <Familie> is /faˈmiːli̯ə/

Is there anything that means this can't be /faˈmiːljə/?

I recently read (in a footnote somewhere) that some analyses of German phonology posit two phonemes that are phonetically close to [j] but the same author ignored the distinction in the rest of his text. Here is a quote:

T.A. Hall (2006) Derived Environment Blocking in Optimality Theory, footnote 8 wrote: According to Hall (1992a) and Wiese (1996), who both base their analyses on Drosdowski et al (1990), [ʝ] surfaces in absolute
syllable-initial position (e.g. Jahr [ʝaːɐ] 'year') and the glide as the second member of an onset cluster (e.g. Union [u.nɪ̯oːn] 'union') and as the second member of the diphthong [ai], e.g. Zeit [tsaɪ̯t] 'time'.
[...]
Hall, TA. 1992a. Syllable Structure and Syllable Related Processes in German, Niemeyer, Tübingen.
[...]
Wiese, Richard. 1996. The Phonology of German, Clarendon Press, Oxford.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:25 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2025 10:41 pm

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Jan 03, 2025 8:13 pm i always felt german should re-spell Knie to "Knieh" so the plural can be "Kniehe", rather than having /kniː/ and /kniːə/ both spelled the same

The ambiguity in German final ⟨-ie⟩ means that one cannot know simply from spelling that words like Familie end in /-iːə/.

For me (and Wiktionary), <Familie> is /faˈmiːli̯ə/.
As for <Knie>, I guess the plural should be <Kniee>. That would feel right to me

My hearing it as /iː/ must be interference from my native English then.

I think, I heard /faˈmiːli(j)ə/ before, especially when people try to speak very clearly, e.g. in order to make the spelling clear.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 4:26 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:47 pm

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 3:25 pm For me (and Wiktionary), <Familie> is /faˈmiːli̯ə/

Is there anything that means this can't be /faˈmiːljə/?

I recently read (in a footnote somewhere) that some analyses of German phonology posit two phonemes that are phonetically close to [j] but the same author ignored the distinction in the rest of his text. Here is a quote:

T.A. Hall (2006) Derived Environment Blocking in Optimality Theory, footnote 8 wrote: According to Hall (1992a) and Wiese (1996), who both base their analyses on Drosdowski et al (1990), [ʝ] surfaces in absolute
syllable-initial position (e.g. Jahr [ʝaːɐ] 'year') and the glide as the second member of an onset cluster (e.g. Union [u.nɪ̯oːn] 'union') and as the second member of the diphthong [ai], e.g. Zeit [tsaɪ̯t] 'time'.
[...]
Hall, TA. 1992a. Syllable Structure and Syllable Related Processes in German, Niemeyer, Tübingen.
[...]
Wiese, Richard. 1996. The Phonology of German, Clarendon Press, Oxford.

Thank you

sometimes nouns ending with -ik stress the final syllable (e.g. Politik) and sometimes they don't (e.g. Grammatik). is there a way to tell which way a word is going to work? or an overall pattern with a list of specific exceptions?