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Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 3:56 am
by Ares Land
zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 am I'm not sure what you mean here. We have to choose between colonialism and fascism? No, we don't.
I may have carried the metaphor a little too far. We don't have to make that particular choice, no, but I feel the choice between a lesser and a greater evil is still very much there.

I do agree with the rest of your points -- and as an aside, if we have to pick heroes, Roosevelt would be a way, way better choice than Churchill.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:12 am
by Travis B.
Ares Land wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:56 am I do agree with the rest of your points -- and as an aside, if we have to pick heroes, Roosevelt would be a way, way better choice than Churchill.
I would not forget the Japanese internment, but at the same time even that was better than 3+ million people starving to death.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:42 am
by Vijay
zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 amI find it shocking that some Indians collaborated with the Axis and that they're remembered fondly in India today.
In many cases, that is because if they had not, they would have starved to death, and many of us would not exist today (plenty of others did starve to death as they did not survive long enough to make such a choice anyway). Despite the romantic tale Congress has always pushed hard of peaceful resistance winning the day, it was precisely the ones who collaborated with the Axis who won our independence in the end.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:18 am
by MacAnDàil
Moose-tache wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:35 am
Sometimes the only choice you get is between a moldy old reactionary and a Nazi, and you have to choose.
In an election maybe. But in the study of history, we don't have to choose which one is "better" in any straight-forward way. All the Churchill apologia in this thread is just playing into the other side. When the teenagers with upside-down As scribbled on their schoolbooks come around and say "All whites are inherently bad," you can't let them catch you trying to rehabilitate the reputation of someone like Churchill. That's not going to help you rebut their ludicrous ideas, and will play into their belief that everyone is oppressing them even when they're not. Jettison Churchill to the pit where we keep Stalin and Nancy Grace, and focus on ideas that are worth defending, like "No, Whites are not inherently bad; that's fucking racist."

Here, I'll go first.

Churchill was terrible and I'm glad he isn't running anything anymore. Also I don't hate myself. Now what, Antifa? ;)
"All whites are inherently bad," gets a total of 7 search hits on Ecosia, 4 of which are copies of someone claiing what someone else says.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:24 am
by Ares Land
Vijay wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:42 am
zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 amI find it shocking that some Indians collaborated with the Axis and that they're remembered fondly in India today.
In many cases, that is because if they had not, they would have starved to death, and many of us would not exist today (plenty of others did starve to death as they did not survive long enough to make such a choice anyway). Despite the romantic tale Congress has always pushed hard of peaceful resistance winning the day, it was precisely the ones who collaborated with the Axis who won our independence in the end.
Are you thinking of Bose? I was under the impression that he was rather a minor figure, so to speak.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:29 am
by Vijay
Ares Land wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:24 am
Vijay wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:42 am
zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 amI find it shocking that some Indians collaborated with the Axis and that they're remembered fondly in India today.
In many cases, that is because if they had not, they would have starved to death, and many of us would not exist today (plenty of others did starve to death as they did not survive long enough to make such a choice anyway). Despite the romantic tale Congress has always pushed hard of peaceful resistance winning the day, it was precisely the ones who collaborated with the Axis who won our independence in the end.
Are you thinking of Bose? I was under the impression that he was rather a minor figure, so to speak.
Not just Bose. Bose was the leader of an entire army. Bose himself may have been a minor figure; the army he led was not at all, though it rarely gets as much credit for independence as it deserves given what actually happened.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 10:11 am
by Raphael
I mostly agree with what zompist has posted in his last couple of posts, but some minor quibbles:

zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:15 am
Ares Land wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 2:19 am Second, there's no staying neutral in the fight between Churchill and Hitler. We can't comfortably banish them both to the lowest circle of Hell!. Sometimes the only choice you get is between a moldy old reactionary and a Nazi, and you have to choose.
I'm not sure what you mean here. We have to choose between colonialism and fascism? No, we don't.

People at the time had to make choices, sure. But as has already been pointed out, even before the war was over, the UK in effect rejected both. It had already (and quite rightly!) rejected Hitler. It also threw out Churchill,
I'd say the paradox here is that they were only able to throw out Churchill because they had previously followed him against Hitler. If they hadn't done that, they wouldn't have been able to throw out whoever would have ruled over Britain in 1945 so easily.

From the perspective of someone trying to make up their mind about the war in 1940, the difference between the Axis and what was left of the Allies at that time, was not so much their track record at the moment, but the differences between their respective potentials for improvement.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 5:18 pm
by zompist
Vijay wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:29 am Not just Bose. Bose was the leader of an entire army. Bose himself may have been a minor figure; the army he led was not at all, though it rarely gets as much credit for independence as it deserves given what actually happened.
I'm not sure what you're pointing to here. The Wikipedia INA article is a place to start. The Japanese and the INA fought and lost battles at Imphal and Kohima, east of Assam, in 1944. This was one of the first major Japanese losses and set the scene for the reconquest of Burma, and the capture of 1/4 of the INA's forces.

You could possibly take the trials of INA soldiers in 1946 as a propaganda victory, but I think it's hard to make a case that this changed anyone's mind, Indian or British, at this point. The main task of 1946, which occupied both sides nearly full time, was setting up an Indian cabinet— and rehearsing the political impasse that led to Partition. The British switch to a Labour government, and Mountbatten's inexplicable haste, had nothing to do with the INA.

The idea that working with the Japanese Empire was heroic, it seems to me, is naive at best. Talk to some Chinese or Indonesians about the Japanese occupation some time. Japan was a colonialist power, and not a nice one.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:00 pm
by Travis B.
zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:18 pm The idea that working with the Japanese Empire was heroic, it seems to me, is naive at best. Talk to some Chinese or Indonesians about the Japanese occupation some time. Japan was a colonialist power, and not a nice one.
Agreed. The Empire of Japan killed somewhere from 3 to 10 million Chinese, Koreans, Filipinos, Indonesians, and Indochinese from the start of their invasion of China to the end of WWII.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 6:49 pm
by Travis B.
It should be remembered that Japan is not remembered fondly in the areas they occupied one bit. From what I can tell, the Chinese and Koreans are more bitter about what the Japanese did than most other Europeans are about what the Germans did to this date.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 8:56 pm
by Vijay
I am well aware of the history of both the INA and the Japanese; my grandfather was in the INA, and I personally transcribed, edited, and reorganized his World War II memoirs and also translated the better part of them into English (the parts towards the beginning were already in English). The Japanese killed plenty of Indians, too.
zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:18 pm
Vijay wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:29 am Not just Bose. Bose was the leader of an entire army. Bose himself may have been a minor figure; the army he led was not at all, though it rarely gets as much credit for independence as it deserves given what actually happened.
I'm not sure what you're pointing to here.
From p. 484-487 and 489-490 of The Forgotten Army: India's Armed Struggle for Independence, 1942-1945 by Peter Ward Fay (not entirely sure who "Ayer" is - perhaps Subramania Iyer?):
Ayer later wrote, of his arrival in Delhi on the 22nd of November, that he "straightaway attacked a pile of newspapers. They carried pages and pages of reports of the trial, which had opened on 5th November and then adjourned for a few days." As he went from paper to paper, "my excitement knew no bounds. The I.N.A. had literally burst on the country. . . . From the Himalayas to Cape Cormorin [it] was aflame with an enthusiastic fervour unprecedented in its history."

For once Netaji's Minister of Publicity and Propaganda may not have overstated the case. India was aflame. "There has seldom been a matter which has attracted so much Indian public interest and, it is safe to say, sympathy." Thus Sir Norman Smith, Director of the Intelligence Bureau, in a confidential note to the Home Department on November 20. Had Ayer seen the note, he would have protested that the DIB did not measure the clamor adequately. Never has a matter so stirred the public, he would have said. But at the same time he would have been pleased to learn that in Sir Norman's opinion "the general Nationalist Press," meaning the newspapers he himself devoured, was encouraging that clamor marvelously. "The effect the publications in question have is undoubted, for many of them are most popular and widely-read even in rural areas." Sir Norman did not see what could be done about it now. It was too late. "The country's ear has largely been captured."

In Lahore tension was palpable long before the trial itself began. Diwali, the Hindu festival, was near (Lahore then was almost as much a Hindu as a Muslim city), and students went about begging householders not to set out the usual Diwali lights—little clay cups holding oil and a floating wick which, when placed along walls and parapets, give residential quarters at night a magical appearance. Out of respect for the patriots whose trial would soon begin, Lahore must remain dark. When Diwali evening came, dark it remained. "Only at isolated points tiny earthen lamps faintly flickered."

The Lahore papers were full of pieces about the Indian National Army, and photographs too: of the three defendants, of Subhas Chandra in uniform, of jawans entering a Manipur village carrying Netaji's portrait (this was the photo Sivaram had identified as fake). Children roamed the lanes and alleys chanting "Azad Fauj Chhor Do, Lal Qila Tor Do." Let the freedom fighters go, tear down the Red Fort. And on November 5, the day the trial began, there was a general hartal. All the shops and offices closed. Thousands of students took to the streets. If a school was reluctant to shut, they shamed it into doing so, or compelled it to. Elsewhere in the Punjab there was hartal too, at Lyallpur to the west, at Rawalpindi to the north. And at Karachi, way to the southwest, the municipal corporation announced an INA day soon.

Simple to organize—it was just a matter of parading with tricolor banners, shouting "Chalo Delhi", demanding the release of the Red Fort prisoners—INA days multiplied right across the country. And right across the country, sub-divisional magistrates attempted to anticipate and stop them, usually by publishing orders that forbade (to use the stock phrase) "processions, meetings, and demonstrations in sympathy with the Indian National Army." One late November edition of the Hindu reported ten such prohibitory orders in the course of forty-eight hours for Madras Province alone. In Vellore the prohibition was to last for one day only. In Salem it was to hold for fifteen. In Cocanada, three hundred miles up the coast, it was to remain in force for an entire month. One would love to know whether the magistrate there was able to make his prohibition stick. It may have been difficult when elections to the Central Legislative Assembly reached the town.

[...]At one point Nehru covered four hundred miles in three days and spoke fourteen times. And these were only his scheduled addresses. Villagers determined to have darshan of the Pandit found that if they blocked the road he would stop, get out of his automobile, and say a few words.

His speeches, as usual, were passionate. To a sense of enormous impatience with British rule he added an implied appeal to violence, an appeal felt particularly by students in any audience. When, therefore, students took out processions (as the Indian expression goes) to protest the Red Fort trials, they were not easily checked, turned back, or dispersed. They stood their ground and threw rocks. A collision of this sort occurred at Madura, deep in the south (it was Ayer's home town), the day after the first trial began. The police there fired, leaving two dead and more wounded. Over the next two weeks there were similar encounters in half a dozen places. But it was at Calcutta, on the afternoon of November 21, that a really serious confrontation erupted.

It, too, started with an attempt by university students to observe an INA Day. The plan was to assemble at Wellington Square and march the half mile to Dalhousie Square, which, with its tank (as India calls an artificial stone or brick-lined pond); its gardens; the General Post Office on one corner; the Writers' Buildings across the north face; was as central and important an open space as Calcutta possessed. Police, however, stopped the column halfway up Dhurrumtolla Street. Dalhousie Square was a prohibited area, they pointed out. The students nevertheless persisted. There were more than a thousand of them. Onlookers swelled their number. They surged forward and were received with lathi charges, some delivered on horseback, until at last the police, who were being pelted unmercifully with brickbats, fired. Three persons fell. But the demonstrators did not scatter.

All night a hard core of students faced the police across the disputed stretch of roadway. In the morning they withdrew, then returned to resume the attempt, though Sarat Bose sent a note (and his brother Sunil came in person) urging them not to. This time they moved simultaneously up Bow Bazar and Dhurrumtolla. And this time, with enormous crowds at their back, they could not be stopped. The police gave way. Tens of thousands swept triumphantly into Dalhousie Square. But it was only the beginning. Already tram and bus drivers had quit work to show their support. Now the municipal sweepers and water workers, who had labor grievances anyway, came out too. Shops and offices closed, less in sympathy than from necessity—it was difficult to get to work. Mobs leavened with the professional thugs India knows as goondas roamed the city, compelling Indians in European dress to take off their hats and ties, stopping British and American military vehicles at improvised barricades and setting fire to them, committing general mayhem. Outnumbered and savagely stoned, the police fired another dozen times. For three days Calcutta lived without transport, water, refuse collection, or order. Then, on the evening of the 24th, just as troops were about to be brought in, quiet unaccountably returned. But several score had been killed, hundreds injured, and some 150 burnt-out vehicles littered the streets.

[...]

You could go into town to do some shopping and discover that the shops were observing "hartal, a boycott against the English." You could go into a shop that was obviously open, and stand there, and wait. And no one would serve you.

And then there was the open hostility.
Even in our little station there was a series of incidents, which were multiplied a thousand times all over the country. Bricks were thrown at Europeans in the dark, windows were smashed, women's handbags snatched and thrown away, and most of these acts were unpunished. In the military hospital which belonged to our transit camp an English nurse had her face slapped by a sweeper in full view of an Indian ward—and the authorities dared do nothing. Any spark, it was thought, might start a conflagration.
Sir Henry Twynam, Governor of the Central Provinces, was neither as calm as Sir Norman nor as agitated as Mrs. Candlin. In a late November letter to the Viceroy he dwelt at some length on what the trials and the Congress election campaign might be doing to the Army. "I am bound to say that I do feel some uneasiness as to the attitude which Indian troops may adopt if called upon to fire on mobs. The disposition towards a sudden change of attitude in a tense political atmosphere is present now, I think, as it was in the days of the mutiny." He meant, of course, the Mutiny—the 1857 business. He had been reading in that regard, he continued, "some of the original reports printed in select State documents,"
and extremely interesting they are. It is extraordinary how Units which were thought to be perfectly loyal suddenly decided to throw in their lot with the mutineers. I do not for one moment suggest that there is any widespread disposition on these lines, but a slight uneasiness remains in my mind when I envisage the possibility of the Province being completely denuded of British troops.

At present in this Province I have 3 European Commissioners, 5 Deputy Commissioners, no Sessions Judges, no Assistant Commissioners, and 7 District Superintendents of Police. Altogether I have available 17 European I.C.S. officers, including 3 Judicial officers, and 19 European members of the Indian Police. These figures exclude people serving in the Government of India but include people on leave. This handful of Europeans has to deal with a population of 18 or more millions over an area of 100,000 square miles. It will be readily appreciated how difficult it will be for the administration if the present "hymn of hate" leads to the retirement of any substantial proportion of this handful of officers.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:25 pm
by Travis B.
Vijay wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:56 pm (not entirely sure who "Ayer" is - perhaps Subramania Iyer?):
Considering that Iyer died in 1924, I think that's unlikely.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Tue May 11, 2021 9:30 pm
by Vijay
Travis B. wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:25 pm
Vijay wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:56 pm (not entirely sure who "Ayer" is - perhaps Subramania Iyer?):
Considering that Iyer died in 1924, I think that's unlikely.
Then maybe Subbier Appadurai Ayer?

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Wed May 12, 2021 12:01 pm
by MacAnDàil
zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:18 pm You could possibly take the trials of INA soldiers in 1946 as a propaganda victory, but I think it's hard to make a case that this changed anyone's mind, Indian or British, at this point. The main task of 1946, which occupied both sides nearly full time, was setting up an Indian cabinet— and rehearsing the political impasse that led to Partition. The British switch to a Labour government, and Mountbatten's inexplicable haste, had nothing to do with the INA.
It is explicable: Mountbatten got the job of viceroy specifically to decolonise India and thought that waiting any longer would lead to civl war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Mou ... y_of_India

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Thu May 13, 2021 4:56 pm
by zompist
Thanks for the quotes, Vijay! The trials were a bigger deal than I'd heard. Sounds like the usual British complete inability to gauge Indian public opinion.
MacAnDàil wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 12:01 pm
zompist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 5:18 pm You could possibly take the trials of INA soldiers in 1946 as a propaganda victory, but I think it's hard to make a case that this changed anyone's mind, Indian or British, at this point. The main task of 1946, which occupied both sides nearly full time, was setting up an Indian cabinet— and rehearsing the political impasse that led to Partition. The British switch to a Labour government, and Mountbatten's inexplicable haste, had nothing to do with the INA.
It is explicable: Mountbatten got the job of viceroy specifically to decolonise India and thought that waiting any longer would lead to civl war.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Mou ... y_of_India
Which he proceeded to do by creating a set of borders that produced two civil wars. (Partition and the Pakistan/Bangladesh war.)

Yes, Mountbatten was sent to negotiate independence, but his timetable seems to have surprised everyone, and I don't think it can be said he did a good job. Though some form of partition was probably inevitable, the British did a botched job of it, and didn't even announce the final borders until the day of independence. There were proposals to make a third country, Bengal; it's hard not to think this wouldn't have been better than the divided Pakistan. There was no provision for security as British troops simply withdrew.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 10:25 am
by MacAnDàil
This adds further detail to what I already knew, thank you. It certainly seems obvious with such details that it could have been better dealt with.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Fri May 14, 2021 4:52 pm
by Vijay
I'll just add one more comment about India in World War II while we're still on the subject, and then hopefully, I won't end up derailing this thread any further.

While most of British India was of course not as badly off as Bengal, I doubt it was that much better off, either. It so happens that I recently read the autobiography of someone who was an ordinary teenager in Kerala during World War II. He essentially claims to have been suicidal from birth (though writing in the third person; this was the last novel he wrote before he did in fact commit suicide a few decades after the war) and rarely gets anything to eat at all. At the beginning of the story, he's so hungry he can't sleep and says he doesn't remember the last time he saw rice-water/the water rice is boiled in. A day or two later, he visits a Brahmin with his mother and siblings; the Brahmin feeds them, and the author's mother asks for five sacks of rice since they have nothing to eat otherwise. She doesn't actually expect five sacks of rice but figures if she asks for five, they'll give her three, only for them to refuse to her shock to give her anything at all. In the middle, he gets a job but has to debate with himself on his first day whether to ask his boss for lunch money or just get water for free at a coffee shop. He decides to go with water, drinks two glasses, and refuses the offer of a third glass.

I've seen a claim that Indians were not drafted into the colonial army at this time and joined voluntarily, but I think this is misleading. Jobs in British India were extremely scarce at that particular time. Most food probably went to the army anyway while most people were starving. Joining the army may have been morally questionable and potentially led to death, but living in that part of the world at the time was not necessarily any better.

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 11:04 am
by alice
For those of you with crystal balls: as the Republican Party grows ever more Trumpist, what effect can you see this having on USA politics in the next few years? A split? A successful right-wing coup? Electoral rejection? Or something else?

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 11:25 am
by Vijay
More explicit racism and increasingly worse Republican presidents every eight years until the US is finally completely ruined in every imaginable way

Re: United States Politics Thread 46

Posted: Thu May 20, 2021 5:37 pm
by zompist
The usual follow-up to a failed coup is a real coup. GOP legislators are busy restricting voting and making it legal for GOP legislatures to overturn elections. In their off moments they're pursuing their war on trans people.

Polls find that over 60% of Republicans swallow Trump's lies about election fraud. Given that, there is no split possible. The 40% who don't accept the lie will not form a minority party guaranteed to lose; they'll just keep voting for Trump.

On the plus side, they're eager to contract Covid and die or get permanent brain damage.

Or penis damage. I wonder if the death cultists realize that erectile dysfunction is a common side effect in Covid survivors.