Zompist Bboard Again

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 8:24 pm The problem is, it's not up to Pete whether "being gay is just an adjective like any other." For anyone who remembers when Mathew Sheppard was killed, or any of the other high profile killings from that era, being gay and chill about it is like being that meme dog in the burning building, saying "this is fine." As long as violence against gays is ongoing, freindly gays doing respectability politics are at best trying to appease the perpetrators, and at worst ignoring the problem.

But I'm not saying Pete isn't "proper gay." Just that your idea of how gays can be "normalized" (which... ick) is naive and unfamiliar to real world gays.

I am well aware of the oppression that gays face to this very day, e.g. the "Don't Say Gay" law in Florida right now, and that you cannot simply wish it away. About attempting to normalize being "gay", that of course is attempting to be accepted by society as no different in the end from anyone else; the fact that one is a man who loves, has sex with, and in many cases marries men are things that one seeks to have accepted as fundamentally no different from being a man who loves, has sex with, and in many cases marries women. Of course, this is a large part of what Pete's detractors are opposed to, because they stand for radical opposition to society's norms rather than trying to fit in with them, and they see by doing so Pete has betrayed the struggle against oppression by society.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:16 pmIs attempting to normalize membership in your community throwing them under the bus?

Not automatically, I wouldn't say, but there are many, many cases of "less queer" people fighting for their own rights, and then stopping once those are achieved. Gay people who only wanted the right to have a monogamous marriage that looks exactly like a straight marriage in every way except for both members being the same gender, and don't care about the rights of other gay people whose life looks less like a straight person's, or about polyamorous people, etc. Binary trans people who medically transition in one particular way to blend in with cisgender society, and don't care about non-binary trans people, or trans people whose transition looks different than theirs.

Often, these people will even claim that "more queer" people are hurting gay/trans rights by not trying to blend in with society more--even just by looking too flamboyant or being too vocal about their queerness. Basically, their attitude is "You can be as queer as me, and no queerer. Only people with my level of gayness deserve rights; anyone who goes farther is making us normal-er gay people look bad."

I don't have a problem with gay-people-who-mostly-look-like-straight-people per se, but experience tells me that they are very likely (at least, much more likely than queerer-looking people) to be like that.

(I can't honestly say I know enough about Pete Buttigieg to comment on whether he's an example of that problem or not.)

The fact is, I'm not "no different in the end from anyone else", at least not in every way. When those queer people who do look more similar to everyone else use that similar-ness as an argument for why they should be fully accepted in society, it sends the message that queer people who don't look so similar to everyone else shouldn't be accepted the same way. I don't say "You should accept me because I'm basically no different from you"; I say, "Yes, I am different from you, and that's not a problem."

I can't help but be reminded of this sketch from long ago.

Did we read the same article, Travis? In the one I read, the author specifically criticised Buttigieg for wanting it both ways: He kept insisting in his campaign that his sexuality didn’t matter and he should be judged on his merits and his ideas, but if you actually do that you find just another underqualified centrist technocrat running for the highest office in the land as if it were the position of class president.

Mayor Pete has one of the worst cases of “best little boy in the world syndrome” I’ve ever seen. It’s the belief that if you prove to heterosexuals you can perform traditional masculinity as well as any of them while fulfilling or exceeding their expectations in other areas, they will magnanimously overlook the fact that you’re a cockgobbler. If that’s what “normalisation “ looks like, then like Moose and LingErth I want no part of it.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 4:23 pm Did we read the same article, Travis? In the one I read, the author specifically criticised Buttigieg for wanting it both ways: He kept insisting in his campaign that his sexuality didn’t matter and he should be judged on his merits and his ideas, but if you actually do that you find just another underqualified centrist technocrat running for the highest office in the land as if it were the position of class president.

Mayor Pete has one of the worst cases of “best little boy in the world syndrome” I’ve ever seen. It’s the belief that if you prove to heterosexuals you can perform traditional masculinity as well as any of them while fulfilling or exceeding their expectations in other areas, they will magnanimously overlook the fact that you’re a cockgobbler. If that’s what “normalisation “ looks like, then like Moose and LingErth I want no part of it.

I specifically said that Buttigieg ought to be criticized on the basis of his politics, specifically that he is just another mediocre, underqualified centrist technocrat, something I agree completely with. I was and am not impressed by him as a politician myself. (Politically I see him as having no real redeeming qualities, and this would not change for me even if he were specifically queer.)

But what I was commenting on is the criticism of him as having a very heterosexual-looking monogamous marriage (aside from the fact that he's married to a man) complete with traditional masculinity. Yes, he has tried very hard to look "normal" to heterosexuals, I agree. But I am not aware of him actually trying to sell out other LGBTQIA+ people as he is so accused simply because he is a so-called "Obergefell gay". It seems to be posited here that simply by trying to be accepted by straight people one is automatically throwing other, more queer people under the bus by implying that only people as queer as oneself should be accepted, but I do not see any real evidence of that here.

What I see evidence of is a mediocre politician who happens to be gay who has gone out of his way to make himself seem "normal" to the heterosexual public. I also see LGBTQIA+ people who are disappointed that he has not taken on a specifically queer persona, as if to be gay one must be politically queer; they seem unwilling to accept that one can be gay, especially as a public figure, without taking on the trappings of gayness, and thus by not doing so they see him as a closet heterosexual. And yes, I agree that in this case Buttigieg has done so for political purposes. But I do not see him as attacking other gay people; while he has sought acceptance from heterosexuals, I do not see him as implying that only individuals as queer, and no queerer than, himself ought to be so accepted.

One bit: about the rejection of "Obergefell gays", what about people like my lesbian cousin who is in a very "normal" marriage with kids, with the only asterisk being that, of course, she is married to a woman? I have not heard anything of her having adopted a specifically queer identity. Should she be so deprecated too?

Who's deprecating anybody? Saying that we don't want Pete Buttigieg held up as a model doesn't mean he's bad (I mean, he's bad, but only because he's a filthy collaborating Centrist scab). He's free to go live his life however he wants. But if he has nothing to say about his sexuality other than "don't worry, when my husband and I have sex, we only think about mortgage rates and the price of soy meal," then he has nothing really to offer the gay community as a leader.

Funny how this discussion occupies close to 0% of the time I spend with gay and lesbian people offline, but the vast majority of the shit I read from queer people online. It's almost like there are people into cosplaying as homos when they've got no money in the game.

My position on the general issue is that there are no easy answers. It's completely true that in basically every group facing oppression, persecution, or discrimination of some kind, there are members of the group helping or taking part in that oppression, persecution, or discrimination, and that kind of thing needs to be called out. On the other hand, if talking about sellouts gets too far, you'll eventually end up with someone claiming to speak for a group when they really just speak for themselves and their three best friends - everyone else is a sellout by their standards. So, again, no easy answers.

(For the record, I'm no fan of Mayor Pete, for other reasons.)

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:57 pm Who's deprecating anybody? Saying that we don't want Pete Buttigieg held up as a model doesn't mean he's bad (I mean, he's bad, but only because he's a filthy collaborating Centrist scab). He's free to go live his life however he wants. But if he has nothing to say about his sexuality other than "don't worry, when my husband and I have sex, we only think about mortgage rates and the price of soy meal," then he has nothing really to offer the gay community as a leader.

I don't think that Pete ever tried to position himself as a leader of the gay community - if anything he's tried to do the opposite and promote the view that his gayness is irrelevant to him as a politician.

I don't know if any of you are Halo fans, but I'm gonna humble brag. I helped make the conlang that the characters are speaking. I'm pretty proud of it and I hope anyone that check's it out enjoys it.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:26 pm I don't know if any of you are Halo fans, but I'm gonna humble brag. I helped make the conlang that the characters are speaking. I'm pretty proud of it and I hope anyone that check's it out enjoys it.

kudos!

masako wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:26 pmI don't know if any of you are Halo fans, but I'm gonna humble brag. I helped make the conlang that the characters are speaking. I'm pretty proud of it and I hope anyone that check's it out enjoys it.

I am happy to see this—it's an accolade well-earned.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:26 pm I don't know if any of you are Halo fans, but I'm gonna humble brag. I helped make the conlang that the characters are speaking. I'm pretty proud of it and I hope anyone that check's it out enjoys it.

Nice!

Very cool, masako. I'll assume you did all the good bits and David did the rest.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:26 pm I don't know if any of you are Halo fans, but I'm gonna humble brag. I helped make the conlang that the characters are speaking. I'm pretty proud of it and I hope anyone that check's it out enjoys it.

I'm not a Halo fan, but that's fantastic! Got a link to examples and which conlang it is? Is it Sangheili?

masako wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:26 pm I don't know if any of you are Halo fans, but I'm gonna humble brag. I helped make the conlang that the characters are speaking. I'm pretty proud of it and I hope anyone that check's it out enjoys it.

Cudos. I went looking for info on it as soon as I finished ep. 1, but couldn't find any. I'd also be interested in anything you can share.

keenir wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:03 pmkudos!

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:19 pmI am happy to see this—it's an accolade well-earned.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 3:31 pmNice!

Thank you, all, very much.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 5:35 pmVery cool, masako. I'll assume you did all the good bits and David did the rest.

I happily admit that the general syntax was all him, but the verbal instrumentals were mine, and that's only important because it makes up the bulk of lexicon. I did work on a few things that haven't made it on screen, and likely won't; an octal numbering system, and a triaxial coordinate system, to name a few. Not sure what inspired me, *cough* ALC *cough* TCL *cough*

Vardelm wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 6:14 pm I'm not a Halo fan, but that's fantastic! Got a link to examples and which conlang it is? Is it Sangheili?

Nila_MadhaVa wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 8:09 pm Cudos. I went looking for info on it as soon as I finished ep. 1, but couldn't find any. I'd also be interested in anything you can share.

Yes, the language is called Sangheili. It's considered a lingua franca for the Covenant races. I can only share what has already been shown onscreen.

Links:https://archiveofourown.org/works/37951303 / https://archiveofourown.org/works/38107774

If I get a chance, and permission, I'll post a thread in the Conlang forum. Gotta stick to the rules though. Keep your eyes out for fan made sites with info as I am sure there will be many.

masako wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 2:26 pm I don't know if any of you are Halo fans, but I'm gonna humble brag. I helped make the conlang that the characters are speaking. I'm pretty proud of it and I hope anyone that check's it out enjoys it.

Amazing! I’m curious to know how you got this opportunity.

That's very cool -- and the language sounds awesome.

The series is not available here yet; but I'll be sure to have a look as soon as it is.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Apr 03, 2022 9:01 pm I’m curious to know how you got this opportunity.

There's a monthly meeting on the 2nd Friday, no, wait, I've said too much...

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Apr 04, 2022 1:53 am That's very cool -- and the language sounds awesome.

Thank you.