Zompist Bboard Again

With the right to vote comes the responsibility of being an informed voter, and you have a substantial portion of the the population that actively and enthusiastically snubs that responsibility.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:26 pm You seem to expect the Democrats to prostrate themselves before the Republican base and never say anything that may slightly offend them while the Republicans constantly shit on anything left of, well, far-right with impunity.

Yeah, it's a ridiculous double standard

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it seems like there's people in this thread/forum that seem ok with the possibility of fascism, they certainly seem unconcerned over Project 2025 and the implications of another Donald Trump presidency.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:26 pmYou seem to expect the Democrats to prostrate themselves before the Republican base and never say anything that may slightly offend them while the Republicans constantly shit on anything left of, well, far-right with impunity.

The idea cuts both (well, all) ways.

Ahzoh wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:41 pmit seems like there's people in this thread/forum that seem ok with the possibility of fascism, they certainly seem unconcerned over Project 2025 and the implications of another Donald Trump presidency.

If this is in reference to me, I do not support Trump and am not a Republican (though neither am I a Democrat). The spectre of another Trump presidency makes me greatly apprehensive and I am all too aware of Project 2025 (and the prospect of JD Vance assuming office; he’s from my state). That does not mean, however, I cannot or will not comment on how we got here.

It doesn't help that a lot of Democrats are likely the ones who voted for various 3rd Party canidates...such as from Federal Party, Justice For All Party, Green Party, etc...

...while I suspect the MAGA voted for Trump no matter who else was running.

That would've been the one good thing about RFK Jr running: he'd have split the MAGA vote as surely as the Bull Moose Party did for its own founders.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:13 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 1:09 pm

Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:32 pm Giving everyone a vote means letting the poorly-educated vote. It always seemed odd to me that the same people who lionize democracy openly insult those without education. Like, the poorly-educated are going to have a vote, and instead of reaching out to them, you (the general “you”, not you specifically) just demonize them. Small wonder they vote for the party that doesn’t practice open intellectual snobbery and bullying against them. (I still remember 2016, when Clinton called half the country a “basket of deplorable”, while Trump said “I love the poorly-educated”.)

Is it "open intellectual snobbery and bullying" to expect people to be just slightly informed (e.g. occasionally opening Google News and reading about politics or even just turning on any TV channel other than Fox News every so often), to be angry when they either patently ignore everything that comes directly out of their chosen candidate's own mouth right in the very open, in the kind of media that they themselves are likely to follow (i.e. they are ignorant) or actively agree with it and think it is good (i.e. they are evil)?

If one party constantly bangs their drum to shit on you for your (lack of) education, would you care what the other does so long as they embraced you? EDIT: Put another way—if one party makes it clear they despise you, why would you be inclined to vote for them?

because the other party also makes it clear they despise us - Trump doesn't even couch it in anything resembling polite language.

Umm it was very obvious what the Republicans stood/stand for and what they were planning to do (the Republicans did nothing to hide it), so anyone who could vote and didn't vote for Harris frankly was/is necessarily either stupid/ignorant (i.e. they didn't realize what Trump was/is for and was/is planning to do or were somehow deluded into thinking it was a good thing) or evil (i.e. they knew full well what Trump intended and how bad it would be and supported it because of that). And you are just making excuses for them with statements like that.

So how exactly do you expect Democrats to ever win again if you reject the idea of trying to change the mind of anybody who didn't already vote for the Democrats?

Travis B. wrote:

Man in Space wrote:If one party constantly bangs their drum to shit on you for your (lack of) education, would you care what the other does so long as they embraced you? EDIT: Put another way—if one party makes it clear they despise you, why would you be inclined to vote for them?

You seem to expect the Democrats to prostrate themselves before the Republican base and never say anything that may slightly offend them

You think uneducated/poor people are the Republican base? This is how we get shit like the Chuck Schumer plan.

A quote from Zompist's "The Last Century" page ( https://www.zompist.com/predic.htm ) comes to mind:

Zompist wrote:Ally with other institutions. Liberals tend to be too happy with their influence on government, the academy, and the media. They tend to forget (or are actively hostile toward) the church, the military, business, the family. All of these can be allies for progressive causes.

WeepingElf wrote:I also think the staff is broken over Ukraine now - within a year, Zelensky will be either dead, in gulag, or in exile. Things haven't been kind to him and all freedom-loving Ukrainians, ans without support from the USA, things will get very bad. So Trump will end the war in Ukraine - but in an unacceptable way.

RIP Ukraine and RIP Taiwan. Trump, in his characteristic narcissistic and lazy way, doesn't understand that China cares far more about Taiwan than they care about some tariffs, and that China probably already expects a full trade embargo if/when they invade Taiwan anyways. ( https://www.reuters.com/world/trump-say ... 024-10-18/ )

Also, the Democrats didn't even win the presidential popular vote this time.

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:39 pm

Umm it was very obvious what the Republicans stood/stand for and what they were planning to do (the Republicans did nothing to hide it), so anyone who could vote and didn't vote for Harris frankly was/is necessarily either stupid/ignorant (i.e. they didn't realize what Trump was/is for and was/is planning to do or were somehow deluded into thinking it was a good thing) or evil (i.e. they knew full well what Trump intended and how bad it would be and supported it because of that). And you are just making excuses for them with statements like that.

So how exactly do you expect Democrats to ever win again if you reject the idea of trying to change the mind of anybody who didn't already vote for the Democrats?

By when midterms come (provided America still has free and fair elections then) people seeing how much of a clusterfuck Trump's policies really are, and considering their past votes for him having been a poor choice?

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 4:39 pm

Travis B. wrote:

Man in Space wrote:If one party constantly bangs their drum to shit on you for your (lack of) education, would you care what the other does so long as they embraced you? EDIT: Put another way—if one party makes it clear they despise you, why would you be inclined to vote for them?

You seem to expect the Democrats to prostrate themselves before the Republican base and never say anything that may slightly offend them

You think uneducated/poor people are the Republican base? This is how we get shit like the Chuck Schumer plan.

As I said, the Republicans constantly shit on everyone slightly to their left but get all hypersensitive about the least criticism from their left. And I was not just criticizing poorly educated supporters of the Republicans, I was also criticizing educated supporters of the Republicans (i.e. the evil ones, as these are people who really know what the Republicans are for and support them anyways) too, lest you forget that.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 12:32 pm I found this series of slides illuminating.

The article it links to is excellent, thanks.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:50 am

Emily wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 9:44 am shocking that calling people stupid and ignorant didn't win them over to your side

When people act in a way that might well end up significantly shortening my life, I don't see why I should be nice and respectful towards them.

Also, regarding this: I think there’s one good reason to be respectful, namely because that would make it easier to have a discussion with them and possibly change their opinions. As justified as impoliteness may be, it doesn’t help to change their opinions.

There's so many people on social media that don't take the Project 2025 document seriously.

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Nov 06, 2024 6:05 pm Also, regarding this: I think there’s one good reason to be respectful, namely because that would make it easier to have a discussion with them and possibly change their opinions. As justified as impoliteness may be, it doesn’t help to change their opinions.

The liberal obsession with civility politics

Civility only works when both parties are acting in good faith, but most of these people are bad faith actors and they certainly don't care to be civil themselves. Besides, many of them stubbornly don't want to be convinced.

By when midterms come (provided America still has free and fair elections then) people seeing how much of a clusterfuck Trump's policies really are, and considering their past votes for him having been a poor choice?

So you're just okay with constantly losing half the time to fascists? got it. As you implied, how long will free and fair elections even still exist if fascists are in power half the time? You seem to understand the stakes, so I don't understand your reluctance to change anything.