Zompist Bboard Again

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 6:48 am What vowel do people have in "swollen"? I have /V/ (STRUT), but I just learned that wiktionary ( https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/swollen#English ) says the standard is /o/ (GOAT).

Listening at Youglish ( https://youglish.com/pronounce/swollen/english/us ), browsing the first dozen or so videos, (to my ears) half of the American speakers sound like they're saying /o/, and the other half /V/. The British and Australians sound much more distinctly /o/.

Maybe I have some kind prohibition against /wo/? Yet, I still have /wo/ in "woah", "woad", and "woke". (Maybe "woah" doesn't count for much, because it's an interjection.)

As a native speaker of AmE from the Western US, my pronunciation is /swl̩.ɪn/.

I would add that /ol/ and /ʌl/ in other dialects are realized as /l̩/ in my dialect, although due to influence from East Coast speakers as of late it seems as though /ʌl/ is reverting back in some cases.

I have STRUT realized as [ʌː] in swollen. I did not even know that GOAT, which I would realize as [o̞ː], was even an option in this word.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 1:01 pm I have STRUT realized as [ʌː] in swollen. I did not even know that GOAT, which I would realize as [o̞ː], was even an option in this word.

... whereas I have GOAT and was not previously aware of a pronunciation with STRUT.

anteallach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 4:03 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 1:01 pm I have STRUT realized as [ʌː] in swollen. I did not even know that GOAT, which I would realize as [o̞ː], was even an option in this word.

... whereas I have GOAT and was not previously aware of a pronunciation with STRUT.

As is the case for me.

Note that it does not seem wrong when I pronounce swollen with FOOT, i.e. with [ʊː], so it sounds like woolen. However, pronouncing it with GOAT feels difficult to me; the sequence /woʊl/ [wo̞(ː)w] feels hard to pronounce for me, and I naturally tend to shift it to having either STRUT or FOOT.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 12:09 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 4:03 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 1:01 pm I have STRUT realized as [ʌː] in swollen. I did not even know that GOAT, which I would realize as [o̞ː], was even an option in this word.

... whereas I have GOAT and was not previously aware of a pronunciation with STRUT.

As is the case for me.

And me. Travis' alternative pronunciation with FOOT is also one I was unaware of.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 11:45 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 12:09 am

anteallach wrote: ↑Wed Aug 06, 2025 4:03 pm ... whereas I have GOAT and was not previously aware of a pronunciation with STRUT.

As is the case for me.

And me. Travis' alternative pronunciation with FOOT is also one I was unaware of.

Note that stressed /ʊl/ in my dialect is equivalent to stressed /l̩/ in other dialects and is realized as [ʊː(ː)].

On that note, does anyone else merge will (when used as a verb) and wool in everyday speech as /wʊl/? Note that I realize them when merged as [wʊː(ː)].

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 4:31 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 11:45 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 12:09 am

As is the case for me.

And me. Travis' alternative pronunciation with FOOT is also one I was unaware of.

Note that stressed /ʊl/ in my dialect is equivalent to stressed /l̩/ in other dialects and is realized as [ʊː(ː)].

What dialects have a stressed /l̩/‽ Woolen is [ˈwɵln̩] for me, with FOOT.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 5:25 pm On that note, does anyone else merge will (when used as a verb) and wool in everyday speech as /wʊl/? Note that I realize them when merged as [wʊː(ː)].

For me, in some unstressed positions will does reduce to /wl̩/, but this is probably underlyingly similar to yours as in my dialect the STRUT, FOOT, and GOAT vowels are neutralized before /l/ and leave a syllabic consonant behind.

Lērisama wrote: ↑Fri Aug 08, 2025 10:49 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 4:31 pm

Lērisama wrote: ↑Thu Aug 07, 2025 11:45 am And me. Travis' alternative pronunciation with FOOT is also one I was unaware of.

Note that stressed /ʊl/ in my dialect is equivalent to stressed /l̩/ in other dialects and is realized as [ʊː(ː)].

What dialects have a stressed /l̩/‽ Woolen is [ˈwɵln̩] for me, with FOOT.

Apparently some NAE varieties are analyzed by their speakers (e.g. abahot in this very thread) as having stressed /l̩/.

In my dialect, /{/ and /E/ are raised before the voiced velars /N/ and /g/. I recently learned that some dialects (not mine) also raise /{/ before /n/, and now I can't stop hearing it from others all the time. But why is /{/ raised before /n/ and not another alveolar like /d/? I understand why a velar like /N/ would raise a preceding vowel, but what's so special about /n/?

Another question: Does anybody else still pronounce the /l/ in "palm"? I do, with a STRUT vowel, just like "bald". Is there a map that shows which areas do and don't pronounce the /l/?

As an aside, "palm" is also one of the few words that made me consciously realize as a child that my accent was different from GA, because I didn't notice things like GA not merging "caught" and "cot" (which I do have).

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:30 amAnother question: Does anybody else still pronounce the /l/ in "palm"? I do, with a STRUT vowel, just like "bald". Is there a map that shows which areas do and don't pronounce the /l/?

You say "pulm" and "buld"? The standard pronunciation would be with FATHER and CAUGHT?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 6:30 am

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:30 amAnother question: Does anybody else still pronounce the /l/ in "palm"? I do, with a STRUT vowel, just like "bald". Is there a map that shows which areas do and don't pronounce the /l/?

You say "pulm" and "buld"? The standard pronunciation would be with FATHER and CAUGHT?
JAL

Yes. "palm" is (roughly) [pʰV:lm], and "bald" is [bV:ld]. Whether the underlying phoneme is /A/ (FATHER/CAUGHT/COT) or /V/ (STRUT) is debatable, because of a sound change that raises [A] to [V] when before /l/ or /r/ and another consonant, as I described in an earlier thread ( https://www.verduria.org/viewtopic.php?t=1584 ).

The standard GA pronunciations are /pAm/ and /bOld/. (/bAld/ if you merge CAUGHT and COT.)

jcb wrote: ↑Wed Aug 13, 2025 11:48 pm In my dialect, /{/ and /E/ are raised before the voiced velars /N/ and /g/. I recently learned that some dialects (not mine) also raise /{/ before /n/, and now I can't stop hearing it from others all the time. But why is /{/ raised before /n/ and not another alveolar like /d/? I understand why a velar like /N/ would raise a preceding vowel, but what's so special about /n/?

I'm not sure what's special about it, but it is very common in NAE dialects to have [ɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆]~[ɛ̃ə̯̃] or [ẽ̆ə̯̃̆]~[ẽə̯̃] for TRAP before /n/ (and /m/). In the dialect here the typical realization of TRAP before /n/ and /m/ is [ɛ̃̆ə̯̃̆]~[ɛ̃ə̯̃] (mind you the typical realization of TRAP therein is [ɛ(ː)]), even though in my own idiolect I may have [ɛ̃(ː)] for TRAP before /n/ and /m/.

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:30 am Another question: Does anybody else still pronounce the /l/ in "palm"? I do, with a STRUT vowel, just like "bald". Is there a map that shows which areas do and don't pronounce the /l/?

As an aside, "palm" is also one of the few words that made me consciously realize as a child that my accent was different from GA, because I didn't notice things like GA not merging "caught" and "cot" (which I do have).

In my own idiolect I have a split between palm and pom (as in pom-pom) where the former is [pʰɑ̃(ː)m] while the latter is [pʰã(ː)m]. Mind you, in my idiolect pall is [pʰɒ(ː)o̯].

jal wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 6:30 am

jcb wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 12:30 amAnother question: Does anybody else still pronounce the /l/ in "palm"? I do, with a STRUT vowel, just like "bald". Is there a map that shows which areas do and don't pronounce the /l/?

You say "pulm" and "buld"? The standard pronunciation would be with FATHER and CAUGHT?


JAL

English back vowels before /l/, and especially before /l/+obstruent clusters without a morpheme boundary after the /l/, are all over the place. I wouldn't be that surprised if someone claimed to have FOOT in bald.

In most forms of British English the <l> in palm is silent, with the vowel being as in father as you say; indeed the Wells keyword for that vowel is actually PALM. However, I've read that some West Country accents retain /l/, and I suspect that that may be one source of the American tendency to restore it, though spelling pronunciation may also be a factor.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 9:11 am In my own idiolect I have a split between palm and pom (as in pom-pom) where the former is [pʰɑ̃(ː)m] while the latter is [pʰã(ː)m]. Mind you, in my idiolect pall is [pʰɒ(ː)o̯].

I've probably asked you this before, but does the vowel you use in palm occur in any words without a written <l>?

anteallach wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 9:55 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Aug 14, 2025 9:11 am In my own idiolect I have a split between palm and pom (as in pom-pom) where the former is [pʰɑ̃(ː)m] while the latter is [pʰã(ː)m]. Mind you, in my idiolect pall is [pʰɒ(ː)o̯].

I've probably asked you this before, but does the vowel you use in palm occur in any words without a written <l>?

Overall I have a regular pattern where LOT adjacent to /r w h kw gw/ except in cases where historical LOT before /r/ merged with NORTH/FORCE (e.g. Florida, horrible, forest) is realized as [ɑ(ː)]~[ɑ̃(ː)]. This results in pronunciations like Guatemala [ˌɡ̥ʷwɑɾə̃ːˈmaːɤ̯ə(ː)] and aqua [ˈɑkʷwə(ː)] where normally my LOT is [a(ː)]~[ã(ː)]. I for the longest time thought this was just allophony, but palm versus pom indicates that this may be marginally phonemic for me.