Zompist Bboard Again

"kyoto" [kjo:to:]
"tokyo" [to:ki:jo:"]

[kʰəˈjɐˑy̯ɾɐy̯]
[ˈtʰɐy̯kʰə̆jɐy̯]

Kyoto /ˈkjoʊttoʊ/ [ˈcʰj̥ø̞ʔtːø̞(ː)]
Tokyo /ˈtoʊkjoʊ/ [ˈtʰø̞cjø̞(ː)]

(No, these do not sound like the rounded mid front vowels in German in case you were wondering.)

Darren wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 4:48 am [kʰəˈjɐˑy̯ɾɐy̯]
[ˈtʰɐy̯kʰə̆jɐy̯]

Holy vowel-consonant sequencesdiphthongs batman!

I am wondering if you guys have geminates in any of the -teen words:

thirteen: /ˈθɜrtˌtin/ [ˈt̪θʁ̩ˤʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
fourteen: /ˈfɔrtˌtin/ [ˈfɔʁˤʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
fifteen: /ˈfɪfˌtin/ [ˈfɨfˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
sixteen: /ˈsɪksˌtin/ [ˈsɨʔksʲˌtʲʰĩ(ː)(n)]
seventeen: /ˈsɛvəntˌtin/ [ˈsɜːvɘ̃ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
eighteen: /ˈeɪtˌtin/ [ˈe̞ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
nineteen: /ˈnaɪntˌtin/ [ˈnã̆ẽ̯̆ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 2:18 pm I am wondering if you guys have geminates in any of the -teen words:

thirteen: /ˈθɜrtˌtin/ [ˈt̪θʁ̩ˤʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
fourteen: /ˈfɔrtˌtin/ [ˈfɔʁˤʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
fifteen: /ˈfɪfˌtin/ [ˈfɨfˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
sixteen: /ˈsɪksˌtin/ [ˈsɨʔksʲˌtʲʰĩ(ː)(n)]
seventeen: /ˈsɛvəntˌtin/ [ˈsɜːvɘ̃ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
eighteen: /ˈeɪtˌtin/ [ˈe̞ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
nineteen: /ˈnaɪntˌtin/ [ˈnã̆ẽ̯̆ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]

Geminates in 13,14,18,19, not in the others.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 2:18 pm I am wondering if you guys have geminates in any of the -teen words:

thirteen: /ˈθɜrtˌtin/ [ˈt̪θʁ̩ˤʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
fourteen: /ˈfɔrtˌtin/ [ˈfɔʁˤʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
fifteen: /ˈfɪfˌtin/ [ˈfɨfˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
sixteen: /ˈsɪksˌtin/ [ˈsɨʔksʲˌtʲʰĩ(ː)(n)]
seventeen: /ˈsɛvəntˌtin/ [ˈsɜːvɘ̃ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
eighteen: /ˈeɪtˌtin/ [ˈe̞ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
nineteen: /ˈnaɪntˌtin/ [ˈnã̆ẽ̯̆ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]

Heinously different

[ˌθɵˑˈɾɘˑi̯n]
[ˌfʊ̞ˑˈɾɘˑi̯n]
[ˌfifˈtʰɘˑi̯n]
[ˌsik̚sˈt(ʰ)ɘˑi̯n]
[ˌsevəˈn̆ɘˑi̯n]
[ɐɪ̯ˈɾɘˑi̯n]
[nɒe̯ˈn̆ɘˑi̯n]

All of them have variants with initial stress as well. Not sure what the exact difference is. In isolation the iambs appear, in counting the trochees appear, in connected speech I think you tend to get trochees before stressed words (fóurteen fífty) and iambs before less stressed (fourtéen fìfty-níne). I'll have to keep an ear out. No gemination; only 15 and 16 actually have [t] except in very careful slow speech. Can't work out whether it's aspirated in 16 or not and now I've thought about it too much and both versions sound wrong so I don't know.

vowel
scowl
disavowal
Joel
fuel
fool
jewel
jewellery (or however you spell it)
accrual
dual

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Oct 03, 2025 2:18 pm I am wondering if you guys have geminates in any of the -teen words:

thirteen: /ˈθɜrtˌtin/ [ˈt̪θʁ̩ˤʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
fourteen: /ˈfɔrtˌtin/ [ˈfɔʁˤʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
fifteen: /ˈfɪfˌtin/ [ˈfɨfˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
sixteen: /ˈsɪksˌtin/ [ˈsɨʔksʲˌtʲʰĩ(ː)(n)]
seventeen: /ˈsɛvəntˌtin/ [ˈsɜːvɘ̃ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
eighteen: /ˈeɪtˌtin/ [ˈe̞ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]
nineteen: /ˈnaɪntˌtin/ [ˈnã̆ẽ̯̆ʔt̚ˌtʰĩ(ː)(n)]

No geminates, but I do have perhaps slight palatalization to go with the aspiration on all of them.
13: [ˈθɝtʰʲĩn]
14: [ˈfoʊ̯ɹtʰʲĩn]
15: [ˈfɪftʰʲĩn]
16: [ˈsɪkstʰʲĩn]
17: [ˈsɛvn̩tʰʲĩn]
18: [ˈeɪ̯tʰʲĩn]
19: [ˈnaɪ̯ntʰʲĩn]

anteallach wrote: ↑Sun Oct 05, 2025 4:12 am vowel
scowl
disavowal
Joel
fuel
fool
jewel
jewellery (or however you spell it)
accrual
dual

vowel [vaʊ̯l̪]
scowl [skaʊ̯l̪]
disavowal [ˈdɪsəˌvaʊ̯wᵊl̪]
Joel [ˈd͡ʒo̙ʊ̯l̪] (the vowel here feels tighter than for "Joe")
fuel [ˈfjuʔəl̪]~[ˈfjul̪] (for me, the schwa sometimes shows up, sometimes not)
fool [ˈful̪]
jewel [ˈd͡ʒuwəl̪]~[ˈd͡ʒul̪] (same here as for fuel)
jewellery (or however you spell it) [ˈd͡ʒul̪ɹi]
accrual [əˈkʰɹuʔəl̪]
dual [duʔəl̪]

vowel /ˈvaʊəl/ [ˈvɑɔ̯wʊ(ː)], /vaʊl/ [vɑ̆ʊ̯ˑ]~[vɑʊ̯ː]
scowl /skaʊl/ [skɑ̆ʊ̯ˑ]~[skɑʊ̯ː]
disavowal /ˌdɪsəˈvaʊəl/ [ˌd̥ɨsəːˈvɑɔ̯wʊ(ː)], /ˌdɪsəˈvaʊl/ [ˌd̥ɨsəːˈvɑ̆ʊ̯ˑ]~[ˌd̥ɨsəːˈvɑʊ̯ː]
Joel /dʒoʊl/ [tʃo̞(ː)ʊ̯]
fuel /fjul/ [fju(ː)ʊ̯]
fool /ful/ [fʷu(ː)ʊ̯]
jewel /dʒul/ [tʃʷu(ː)ʊ̯]
jewellery (or however you spell it) /ˈdʒulri/ [ˈtʃʷuːʊ̯ʁˤi(ː)]
accrual /əˈkrul/ [ɘˈkʷʰʁ̥ʷˤu(ː)ʊ̯]
dual /dul/ [d̥ʷu(ː)ʊ̯]

Is there a name for the sound change that is reflected here in my dialect?

Edit: Apparently this is commonly referred to as the vile-vial merger.

Does anyone else pronounce the brand name Nissan with a geminate in English?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 05, 2025 9:59 pm Is there a name for the sound change that is reflected here in my dialect?

Edit: Apparently this is commonly referred to as the vile-vial merger.

For me what happens after front vowels (and front tending diphthongs) is different from what happens after back vowels. After back vowels, except where it's blocked by a morpheme boundary (disavowal, accrual) I have complete loss of the schwa, leading to clearly monosyllabic pronunciations of e.g. jewel and vowel which rhyme with fool and scowl.

After front vowels the change is if anything in the other direction, with a clear backwards glide before the dark /l/ in e.g. vile, trail, feel. Instinctively I still think there's a difference between monosyllabic vile and bisyllabic vial, but I think the development of the glide in the former has set them well on the way to merging.

anteallach wrote: ↑Mon Oct 06, 2025 1:14 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 05, 2025 9:59 pm Is there a name for the sound change that is reflected here in my dialect?

Edit: Apparently this is commonly referred to as the vile-vial merger.

For me what happens after front vowels (and front tending diphthongs) is different from what happens after back vowels. After back vowels, except where it's blocked by a morpheme boundary (disavowal, accrual) I have complete loss of the schwa, leading to clearly monosyllabic pronunciations of e.g. jewel and vowel which rhyme with fool and scowl.

After front vowels the change is if anything in the other direction, with a clear backwards glide before the dark /l/ in e.g. vile, trail, feel. Instinctively I still think there's a difference between monosyllabic vile and bisyllabic vial, but I think the development of the glide in the former has set them well on the way to merging.

My pattern is I uniformly have the vile-vial merger except with MOUTH, where I may or may have it based on stress and register. Note that with PRICE I have the merger, but I vary between monopthongization of PRICE to [a(ː)] before non-syllabic /l/, preservation of PRICE as a diphthong directly before non-syllabic /l/, and syllabicization of /l/ following a diphthongal PRICE depending on stress and the register.

vowel /væwəl/*
scowl /skæwl/*
disavowal /disəvæwəl/
Joel /dʒowl/
fuel /fjuwl/
fool /fuwl/
jewel /dʒuwl/
jewellery /dʒuwlrij/
accrual /əkruwəl/
dual /duwəl/

* These sets don't reliably correspond to spelling. Owl has (I think) two syllables, vowel and towel may have either one or two, and howl, jowl and bowel have one. The phonetic difference, if extant, is minimal. It may be that the disyllabic pronunciations are borrowed into the dialect from the standard. (For owl, my mother is a competitive birdwatcher who speaks unfailingly standard American English.) There's also the issue of the phonetic difference between words in /-æw(ə)l/ and words in /-æl/: to me these sets are clearly distinct, but a linguistically inclined friend who grew up a few hours north couldn't hear it and speculated about a "Hal-howl merger". The difference is something like [hæɜ̯ɫ] vs. [hæɞ̯ɫ], though.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 05, 2025 9:59 pmEdit: Apparently this is commonly referred to as the vile-vial merger.

But that's basically standard for GenAm isn't it?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Wed Oct 08, 2025 2:55 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Oct 05, 2025 9:59 pmEdit: Apparently this is commonly referred to as the vile-vial merger.

But that's basically standard for GenAm isn't it?

Depends on how conservative it is -- it is pretty standard in GA, but conservative GA may lack it.

Do you guys have /d/ in seventy and ninety?

Here are my -ty numbers:

twenty: /ˈtwʌnti/ [tʲʷʰw̥ʌ̃j̃] (carefully [ˈtʲʷʰw̥ʌ̃ɾ̃i(ː)])
thirty: /ˈθərti/ [ˈt̪θʁ̩ˤi(ː)] (carefully [ˈt̪θʁ̩ˤɾi(ː)])
forty: /ˈfɔrti/ [ˈfɔʁˤi(ː)] (carefully [ˈfɔʁˤɾi(ː)])
fifty: /ˈfɪfti/ [ˈfɨfti(ː)]
sixty: /ˈsɪksti/ [ˈsɨʔksʲtʲi(ː)]~[ˈsɨʔksʲ(ː)i(ː)]
seventy: /ˈsɛvəndi/ [ˈsɜːvɘ̃ːndi(ː)]~[ˈsɜːːndi(ː)]
eighty: /ˈeɪti/ [ˈe̞ɾi(ː)]~[e̞j]
ninety: /ˈnaɪndi/ [ˈnãẽ̯ndi(ː)]~[nãj̃ː]

Note that the pronunciations marked as "carefully" only really show up for me when I consciously use them.

I do actually use /d/ in sixty, seventy, and ninety, but not in any of the other ones. this is what those look like for me:

twenty: /ˈtʰʷəni/
thirty: /ˈθɚɾi/
forty: /ˈfɔʴɾi/
fifty: /ˈfɪɾi/
sixty: /ˈsɪg͡zdi/
seventy: /ˈsɛvɪndi/
eighty: /ˈeɪ̯ɾi/
ninety: /ˈnaɪ̯ndi/

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Oct 16, 2025 10:24 am Do you guys have /d/ in seventy and ninety?

Yes in seventy, no in ninety.