Zompist Bboard Again

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 3:12 pm sometimes nouns ending with -ik stress the final syllable (e.g. Politik) and sometimes they don't (e.g. Grammatik). is there a way to tell which way a word is going to work? or an overall pattern with a list of specific exceptions?

I'm at least not aware of any such rule.

I have the feeling that Politik is the outlier here, at least when it comes to fields of study. All of the others I can think of (e.g. Linguistik, Germanistik, Informatik) have penultimate stress.

With the exception of Katholik, the common nouns with stressed final -ik seem to be recent borrowings from French (e.g. Aspik, Fabrik). Politik is derived from French politique, so perhaps that's the reason for this stress pattern.

Maybe it is specifically recent French loans versus words based on the set of words of Latinate derivation common to western Europe? This would definitely explain the difference in stress pattern.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 4:10 pm Maybe it is specifically recent French loans versus words based on the set of words of Latinate derivation common to western Europe? This would definitely explain the difference in stress pattern.

Maybe. But Politik is not the only -ik noun with final stress, Mathematik, Physik, Kritik and a few others are stressed that way, too. All these words are ultimately Greek in origin, but may have entered German via French, but I don't know.

Could it be that these are actually two suffixes? -tik from Ancient Greek tékhnē as in penultimate-stress Grammatik and -ik as in final-stress Physik, Kritik from Ancient Greek -ikos? I don't know if there is a real correlation though.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 6:16 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Jan 13, 2025 4:10 pm Maybe it is specifically recent French loans versus words based on the set of words of Latinate derivation common to western Europe? This would definitely explain the difference in stress pattern.

Maybe. But Politik is not the only -ik noun with final stress, Mathematik, Physik, Kritik and a few others are stressed that way, too. All these words are ultimately Greek in origin, but may have entered German via French, but I don't know.

Note English physique and critique, which similarly have final stress and are obviously recent loans via French. (Mathematik could also be from French mathematique.)

I really wish I had access to Duden right now... it could definitely answer these questions...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Jan 14, 2025 1:50 pm I really wish I had access to Duden right now... it could definitely answer these questions...

Actually, I do have access to the free version of Duden online. It says that Mathematik, e.g., comes directly from Latin (ars) mathematica, itself from Greek mathēmatikḗ (téchnē). However, its form, especially its final-syllable stressed long vowel, is suspiciously Frenchy...