Zompist Bboard Again

If we're doing that, then for me:

• Many instances of schwa in unstressed syllables are deleted, notably the ends up pronounced as [ð] in nearly all cases, is is often also a consonant
• In diphthongs, the final [ɪ] is often weakened, so [aɪ eɪ ɔɪ iɪ] > [aː eː ɔː iː]; now [ɔː] appears in non-prerhotic contexts
• The [ʊ] feels like it may be weakening, too; so [aʊ oʊ] > [aː oː];
• [ɪ iː] trigger loads of palatalisation;
• Stressed [æ ɛ ɪ] > [ɛə ɪə iə] > [ɛː ɪː iː]
• My final -[i] is often [ɪ] in rapid speech;
• Final consonant devoicing, spread from other dialects; phonemicises a terminal [z̺] > [s̺]; [s̺] merges with [ts] after [n]
• [ʌ ɜɹ] merge with [ɛ ɛɹ];
• Final [t k] > [ə] through vocalisation of an intermediary glottal stop phase postvocalically; lost with lengthening after other consonants;

A few other things probably not noted because they've already happened. This is also a fairly conservative estimate; I could see [ɫ] > [w] happening pretty easily, too. A few modest spelling changes, mostly simplifications and replacement of vowel letters with apostrophies, are also provided. Most of the spelling, however, I could see left unchanged.

Th' boy teaches th' girl but she lerns nothing as he 's lazy.
[ðbɔː ˈtɕʰiː.t͡ʃəs̺ ðgɛɹɫ ˈbɪːə ˈɕiː ˈlɛːɹnt͡s ˈnɛ.θiŋ ɛːs̺ ˈçiː s̺leː.zɪ]

Kick th' ball, lift th' balls
[ˈcʰiːə ðbɒəɫ ˈʎiːf ˈðbɒəɫs̺]

Th' fool bets on a bet
[ðfuːəɫ ˈbɛːəts ˈɑn ə ˈbɛːə]

Built for Brisbane Nightlife
[biːəːɫ fəɹ bɹiːz̺bən naːt.laːf

Boiled water
[ˈbɔːɫd ˈwaː.dəɹ]

A black field 'f dead crops was left after th' fire
[ə ˈblɛːə ˈfiːəːɫv ˈdɛːə ˈkʰrɑːəs̺ ˈwəs̺ ˈlɪːf ˈɒv.dəɹ ðfaːɹ]

Sydney Perils
[ˈsiːd.nɪ ˈpʰɪː.ɹəɫs̺]

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:08 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:14 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 2:56 pm

What horrible Anglic variety is this?

Just some experimentations in future derivations of my speech.

Just where are you from?

Brisbane but my speech has been thoroughly rhoticised via american influence.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:47 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:08 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 6:14 pm

Just some experimentations in future derivations of my speech.

Just where are you from?

Brisbane but my speech has been thoroughly rhoticised via american influence.

Have you spent a lot of time in the US?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 8:11 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:47 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 21, 2022 7:08 pm

Just where are you from?

Brisbane but my speech has been thoroughly rhoticised via american influence.

Have you spent a lot of time in the US?

I've never been outside of Oceania. Will be going to maritime Southeast Asia next year and i want to go to Europe but as i am informed Americanisation of speech is the result of having more interaction with movies then real people (not that i watch movies that much anymore).

I've experienced a similar effect from reading books (especially as a child) more than interacting with people.

Back when I was in school, a British exchange teacher once asked me in English class if I had been on a student exchange in the USA, and I told him, truthfully, that I hadn't been, and he said that he could have sworn I had been based on the US influence in my accent.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 22, 2022 4:46 amhe said that he could have sworn I had been based on the US influence in my accent.

When I visited London in '95, the campsite owners thought I was Canadian, based on my American accent with vague Dutch influences. Nowadays I try a British accent though, but I haven't been to the UK since.


JAL

When I was a little kid, like 5-6 years old, I watched cartoons (mostly American cartoons dubbed into Spanish) so much that my speech was strongly influenced by the dubbers' neutral Spanish accent, and people meeting me at school would sometimes ask me what country I was from... I learned the local form of Spanish over the next couple years though.

I've had people here in Wisconsin ask me where I'm from... but then I've had someone I did not know once pick out (on the first try, unprompted) the exact suburb I grew up in based on my accent...

Here's a feature I came up with for a conlang awhile back. (Note: The speakers of this language are a race of sentient reptiles called serulir, singular serul; that word is from a different language than the one I'm talking about here.)


Nouns in Chehûshan always take a suffix indicating something that could be described as "the role of the object in the world":

Suffix	Meaning
-d	Independent entity
-q	Component of a larger entity
-r	Authority: entity which has control over the speaker, listener, or both
-n	Personal property of the speaker
-ne	Personal property of the listener
-ŋa	Personal property of someone else
-ś	Public property (of serulir)
-hŋo	Alien: object relating to people of non-serul races

The independent role marks an entity viewed as existing in and of itself. Things usually placed in this role include:

• Individual people (both serulir and others)
• Wild animals
• Geographical features, when they are seen as not belonging to anyone
• The world itself
• The sky and things in it

The component role marks an entity viewed as part of something else. Things usually placed in this role include:

• Body parts
• Parts of a machine
• One side (top, front, etc.) of any object
• Sometimes people, when emphasizing their role as part of a larger organization (e.g. the military, or society itself): an example of this use is in the full name of the country of Chehûsh, Cudnuqronoseś kri-Hnaq Houkylho ce-Hûś where the word hna "serul" is placed in the component role to emphasize each citizen's role as a member of society, rather than an individual

The authority role marks an entity which has some sort of control over the speaker, listener, or both. Examples include the government or other authorities among people; but may also be used for abstract things like the law, or even laws of physics. This role has some characteristics of an honorific: it would be seen as quite rude to address or mention one of your superiors without using an -r at the end of their name, and even treasonous to speak of the government without doing so.

The various personal property roles mark items possessed by individual serulir, including:

• One's various personal possessions
• One's own home
• Any domestic animals one may own

Personal property roles do not include parts of one's body (which use the component role instead), or relatives, friends, or other people connected to the person (which use the independent or authority role as appropriate).

The public property role is for items viewed as belonging collectively to all serulir, or at least all serulir of Chehûsh or of a particular town or city. These include:

• Public facilities, such as roads, public buildings, and public services
• The government
• The country itself
• The land the country is built on, and various geographical features in it: an example of this is also in the name Chehûsh or ce-Hûś, which could be translated "by our (the people's, collectively) sea"

The alien role is for things relating to people of races other than the serulir. It is used in place of every other role except the independent one when speaking of things belonging to other races: that is, individual nemal or thosul are placed in the independent role like serulir, but a nema's body parts are placed in the alien role rather than the component role, a thosu's possessions are placed in the alien role rather than a personal property role, and the thosul's land is placed in the alien role rather than the public property role.


I'm wondering if any natlang has anything like this, and if the feature has a name? Some of the roles are similar to possession markers or honorifics, of course, but I haven't heard of anything that does all the things this feature does.

Hm, sounds fascinating.

LingEarth wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:05 am I'm wondering if any natlang has anything like this, and if the feature has a name? Some of the roles are similar to possession markers or honorifics, of course, but I haven't heard of anything that does all the things this feature does.

These sound very similar to relational classifiers in possessive constructions: e.g. Boumaa Fijian has a four-way system which distinguishes between possessed nouns ‘relating to the possessor’, ‘owned by the possessor’, ‘drunk by the possessor’, ‘eaten by the possessor’ (Aikhenvald 2000, Classifiers). Your system differs most prominently in that it is used outside possessive constructions as well.

LingEarth wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:05 amI'm wondering if any natlang has anything like this, and if the feature has a name?

Interesting system. I don't know of anything quite like this, but that makes sense for an alien language.

I'm trying to come up for a word for "present (V.)" in Omni-kan. I was going to construct it like "front-show", but I already made the word for show be i pota, lit. "make see". So attaching the prefix meaning front to either i or pota is awkward. Because it'd either be like "front-make see" or "make front-see". Furthermore, a verb argument can go between i and pota, making it even more awkward. Hmmmmm, how can I solve this.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 10:26 amThese sound very similar to relational classifiers in possessive constructions: e.g. Boumaa Fijian has a four-way system which distinguishes between possessed nouns ‘relating to the possessor’, ‘owned by the possessor’, ‘drunk by the possessor’, ‘eaten by the possessor’ (Aikhenvald 2000, Classifiers). Your system differs most prominently in that it is used outside possessive constructions as well.

Interesting, thanks. I think I'll call this a 'role classifier' in my grammar.

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:22 am I'm trying to come up for a word for "present (V.)" in Omni-kan. I was going to construct it like "front-show", but I already made the word for show be i pota, lit. "make see". So attaching the prefix meaning front to either i or pota is awkward. Because it'd either be like "front-make see" or "make front-see". Furthermore, a verb argument can go between i and pota, making it even more awkward. Hmmmmm, how can I solve this.

You can just make that word polysemic. 'Present' and 'show' already have similar meanings.

Zju wrote: ↑Sun Sep 11, 2022 4:09 pm

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Sat Sep 10, 2022 11:22 am I'm trying to come up for a word for "present (V.)" in Omni-kan. I was going to construct it like "front-show", but I already made the word for show be i pota, lit. "make see". So attaching the prefix meaning front to either i or pota is awkward. Because it'd either be like "front-make see" or "make front-see". Furthermore, a verb argument can go between i and pota, making it even more awkward. Hmmmmm, how can I solve this.

You can just make that word polysemic. 'Present' and 'show' already have similar meanings.

Ah, now I already constructed the word as "front-put", but thanks anyway. I am using a lot of polysemy in this language, and sometimes I wonder when is it too much.

I don't remember if it was here or the CBB, but when I was more actively working on my Japanese-based cat language's sound changes, someone mentioned that Japanese morae are pretty strongly bound. So that the C and the V of CV sequences tend to be affected as a unit for the most part by sound changes. However, part of my ideas of how things would work would be a group of foreign language speakers arriving in Japan, picking up the language with some mistakes/innovations, and use this altered variation as the base for future sound and grammar changes. So I'm not sure that the CV sequences would inherently be closely tied in that variation of the language.

Does that seem plausible? I'd also like the language to become less recognizable as a relative of Japanese before borrowing back more Standard Japanese attributes, but I only have 1,000-1500 years to work in, depending on the exact timeline I give myself.

linguistcat wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 1:56 pm I don't remember if it was here or the CBB, but when I was more actively working on my Japanese-based cat language's sound changes, someone mentioned that Japanese morae are pretty strongly bound. So that the C and the V of CV sequences tend to be affected as a unit for the most part by sound changes.

I don't think this is actually true, though I imagine Kana Orthography makes it feel as if it were.

Sound changes affecting Japanese consonants are often conditioned (palatalisation; Middle Japanese medial /f/ > /w/ intervocalically, then lost before all vowels other than /a/), but even then aren't totally (some varieties have lost prenasalisation, or even come to realise the voiced stops as fricatives, while others haven't). This seems to be fairly normal, however — chain shifts of consonants appear to be not as common as consonants undergoing conditioned shifts in certain environments.

You also have several cross-moraic shifts in vowels: historic /au eu/ (often previously /afu efu/) are now /oː joː/; in many dialects /oi ai/ will merge with /eː/, though this isn't a feature of standard speech. Usually, the number of morae in a word will remain fairly consistent, but there are also examples of nonce shortening (note mochi was archaically mochii).

1500 years is about the time depth from Vulgar Latin to a modern Romance Language, so I think you could well get away with producing some not-very-Japanese-esque language descended from Middle or Old Japanese in that time frame (while they're now very rarely spoken, I think, a few of those are documented to actually exist).

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Wed Sep 21, 2022 3:00 pm I don't think this is actually true, though I imagine Kana Orthography makes it feel as if it were.

...

1500 years is about the time depth from Vulgar Latin to a modern Romance Language, so I think you could well get away with producing some not-very-Japanese-esque language descended from Middle or Old Japanese in that time frame (while they're now very rarely spoken, I think, a few of those are documented to actually exist).

Yeah, I think I accepted that at the time just because I don't feel confident with sound changes generally, although I've worked with Japanese as a language in some form or another since middle school. (The first five or so were a waste as far as actual study, but that's still 20 years of some kind of familiarity!)

I have some ideas for some early changes that should push it out of the standard main island mold, and maybe keep the A/B vowels longer or collapse them differently than Standard Japanese. I should look more into Ryukyuan for that, but that's another matter.