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Re: English questions
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2025 4:25 pm
by jcb
As this thread has already talked about before, in American English, some dialects raise /{/ before /n/.
My question: Has any dialect raised this /{/ so far that it's merged with /ej/? (If so, I guess we could call it the "man-mane(-main) merger".)
Re: English questions
Posted: Sat Nov 01, 2025 7:09 pm
by Travis B.
jcb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 4:25 pm
As this thread has already talked about before, in American English, some dialects raise /{/ before /n/.
My question: Has any dialect raised this /{/ so far that it's merged with /ej/? (If so, I guess we could call it the "man-mane(-main) merger".)
I've never heard of this, because dialects that raise /æ/ past [ɛ] typically diphthongize it as [eə̯] or even [ɪə̯].
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 5:34 am
by Raphael
Over in the Random Thread in Ephemera, Travis posted:
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 8:28 pm
I started out programming at eight years old on Apple //e boxen at school and soon after at home
Is this another Wisconsin thing, or perhaps a personal habit of Travis', or is it common in some tech-related subcultures to use a German plural in this context?
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 6:07 am
by Lērisama
Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 5:34 am
Over in the Random Thread in Ephemera, Travis posted:
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 8:28 pm
I started out programming at eight years old on Apple //e boxen at school and soon after at home
Is this another Wisconsin thing, or perhaps a personal habit of Travis', or is it common in some tech-related subcultures to use a German plural in this context?
Might be analogised from
Oxen?
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 7:23 am
by bradrn
Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 5:34 am
Over in the Random Thread in Ephemera, Travis posted:
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 8:28 pm
I started out programming at eight years old on Apple //e boxen at school and soon after at home
Is this another Wisconsin thing, or perhaps a personal habit of Travis', or is it common in some tech-related subcultures to use a German plural in this context?
Yes, ‘tech-related subcultures‘ is the answer, though it’s getting rarer these days. ‘VAXen’ is also encountered: see the
Jargon File.
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 8:04 am
by Raphael
Thank you!
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 8:48 am
by Richard W
Also Unixen for Unixes or Unices, for the operating systems rather than the boxes running them. By contrast, vaxen refer to the boxes running some version of the VAX/VMS operating system.
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 8:54 am
by Travis B.
Richard W wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 8:48 am
Also
Unixen for
Unixes or
Unices, for the operating systems rather than the boxes running them. By contrast,
vaxen refer to the boxes running some version of the VAX/VMS operating system.
I'm familiar with
VAXen referring to the
machines rather than the operating system they run. As for the operating systems,
Unixes or the irregular plural
Unices are more typical than
Unixen.
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 8:58 am
by Travis B.
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 7:23 am
Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 5:34 am
Over in the Random Thread in Ephemera, Travis posted:
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 8:28 pm
I started out programming at eight years old on Apple //e boxen at school and soon after at home
Is this another Wisconsin thing, or perhaps a personal habit of Travis', or is it common in some tech-related subcultures to use a German plural in this context?
Yes, ‘tech-related subcultures‘ is the answer, though it’s getting rarer these days. ‘VAXen’ is also encountered: see the
Jargon File.
Yeah,
boxen is a traditional plural of
box (as in
computer) amongst some tech people, by analogy with
VAXen, which in turn is by analogy with
oxen.
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 10:03 am
by Raphael
For what it's worth, "VAXen" sounds to me like some kind of weird English/German mashup, or perhaps simple misspelling, with the meaning "to vaccinate someone" or "to perform a Brazilian wax one someone".
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 11:00 am
by Travis B.
I still wish that the canonical plural of shoe in English were shoon (which it was historically in some dialects of English).
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 1:30 pm
by Raphael
Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 11:00 am
I still wish that the canonical plural of
shoe in English were
shoon (which it was historically in some dialects of English).
Of course, the German plural of
Schuh, at least in the nominative case, is
Schuhe, not
Schuhen.
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 3:35 pm
by Raphael
What's the technically "correct" way of putting it?
"Neither Alice nor Bob is going to admit this any time soon."
or
"Neither Alice nor Bob are going to admit this any time soon."
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 4:30 pm
by bradrn
I’m… not sure. (Sorry.) I think I’d tend towards the first one, though.
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 5:01 pm
by Travis B.
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 4:30 pm
I’m… not sure. (Sorry.) I think I’d tend towards the first one, though.
Same thought here.
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 6:17 pm
by zompist
My wife has a copy of the Chicago Manual of Style, so here is the technically correct answer: "is". With two singular referents in a disjunction (or, nor, neither/nor, either/or), the verb and any pronouns remain singular. (E.g. "Neither Bob nor Jim opened his wallet.")
It gets interesting when there are mixed pronouns:
Either he or I am in for a surprise.
Either you or he is right.
Neither you nor I am a plumber.
These examples are correct according to the CMS, and follow the rule that the verb agrees with the closest referent. But they also call them "awkward" and suggest rewriting, e.g. "One of us is in for a surprise."
In informal writing, you can often get away with "are", probably because that's the rule for conjunctions— "Bob and I are agreed."
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 8:33 pm
by Man in Space
jcb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 4:25 pm
As this thread has already talked about before, in American English, some dialects raise /{/ before /n/.
My question: Has any dialect raised this /{/ so far that it's merged with /ej/? (If so, I guess we could call it the "man-mane(-main) merger".)
It’s before the velar nasal instead, but otherwise I do this.
Re: English questions
Posted: Sun Nov 02, 2025 8:37 pm
by Richard W
zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 6:17 pm
These examples are correct according to the CMS, and follow the rule that the verb agrees with the closest referent. But they also call them "awkward" and suggest rewriting, e.g. "One of us is in for a surprise."
In informal writing, you can often get away with "are", probably because that's the rule for conjunctions— "Bob and I are agreed."
I believe these are also the rules for British English, with the rule for disjoint 3rd person singulars being one I have to think about - the weightier the subject phrases, the more likely the singular is.
Re: English questions
Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2025 6:44 am
by Raphael
zompist wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 6:17 pm
My wife has a copy of the
Chicago Manual of Style, so here is the technically correct answer: "is". With two singular referents in a disjunction (
or, nor, neither/nor, either/or), the verb and any pronouns remain singular. (E.g. "Neither Bob nor Jim opened his wallet.")
It gets interesting when there are mixed pronouns:
Either he or I am in for a surprise.
Either you or he is right.
Neither you nor I am a plumber.
These examples are correct according to the CMS, and follow the rule that the verb agrees with the closest referent. But they also call them "awkward" and suggest rewriting, e.g. "One of us is in for a surprise."
In informal writing, you can often get away with "are", probably because that's the rule for conjunctions— "Bob and I are agreed."
Thank you!
Re: English questions
Posted: Mon Nov 03, 2025 6:09 pm
by jcb
Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun Nov 02, 2025 8:33 pm
jcb wrote: ↑Sat Nov 01, 2025 4:25 pm
As this thread has already talked about before, in American English, some dialects raise /{/ before /n/.
My question: Has any dialect raised this /{/ so far that it's merged with /ej/? (If so, I guess we could call it the "man-mane(-main) merger".)
It’s before the velar nasal instead, but otherwise I do this.
I too raise /{/ before /N/ (and /g/), but it's to [{j], except in "hang" which indeed has /ej/. But, unlike many people, I don't raise /{/ before /n/.