Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 12:10 pm If it were such a compound you'd expect, if it were cognate, StG Eichkorn (which is a surname and does not refer to anything like acorns).

Well, that's the thing. I'm more familiar with that surname than any German verbiage. Eichkorn could be another eggcorn, for all we know.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 12:23 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 12:10 pm If it were such a compound you'd expect, if it were cognate, StG Eichkorn (which is a surname and does not refer to anything like acorns).

Well, that's the thing. I'm more familiar with that surname than any German verbiage. Eichkorn could be another eggcorn, for all we know.

StG Eich means and is cognate with ModE oak, and StG Korn is cognate with ModE corn and has the same meaning as the traditional meaning of corn in BrE (i.e. the grain most prevalent in a given locale).

Well, i'm aware of what the German components for Eichkorn mean. What i don't understand is what the surname is supposed to mean or where it would come from. I genuinely think it could be Ecker or Eichel (MHG Eckern) independently becoming "oak-corn" in a related language.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Nov 06, 2025 4:44 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Nov 06, 2025 2:48 pm A witch doctor is neither a doctor nor a witch,

jcb wrote:And people don't generally live in lighthouses.

All these examples depend on thinking in prototypes. Sure, a pancake doesn't look much like a chocolate layer cake. It is "a breadlike food made from a dough or batter that is usually fried or baked in small flat shapes and is often unleavened", as MW has it.

The 'or batter' extends the meaning beyond what I am acquainted with. Additionally, the traditional English pancake (particularly home-tossed) is rather thinner than the modern store-bought form, which seems to be more American. And this is the use of of prototypes which governs on-the-fly morphological analysis, especially in the absence of morphology-sensitive derivation.

It's possible that we have two different words here, just as with the mathematical and paper envelopes, but I don't think so. Travis B's native phonology would not reveal the difference.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Nov 06, 2025 4:44 pm People don't live in doghouses, publishing houses, or the Houses of Parliament either, but these are easily understood extensions of the word.

If they are indeed extensions. The OE meaning is 'building for human habitation, occupation or worship'. An early compound give us modern English bead, as on a necklace. In this latter case, the status of compound is long lost.

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 2:45 pm The 'or batter' extends the meaning beyond what I am acquainted with. Additionally, the traditional English pancake (particularly home-tossed) is rather thinner than the modern store-bought form, which seems to be more American. And this is the use of of prototypes which governs on-the-fly morphological analysis, especially in the absence of morphology-sensitive derivation.

The kind of pancake I'm familiar is made with batter in a frying pan, and I'm an American -- are you confusing these with store-bought frozen waffles?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:18 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 2:45 pm The 'or batter' extends the meaning beyond what I am acquainted with. Additionally, the traditional English pancake (particularly home-tossed) is rather thinner than the modern store-bought form, which seems to be more American. And this is the use of of prototypes which governs on-the-fly morphological analysis, especially in the absence of morphology-sensitive derivation.

The kind of pancake I'm familiar is made with batter in a frying pan, and I'm an American -- are you confusing these with store-bought frozen waffles?

Apart from the walnuts and honey, they match the image at https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... alnuts.jpg. The home-tossed pancakes I am familiar with are unleavened and much thinner - they are normally rolled before adding lemon juice and eating (on Shrove Tuesday).

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:25 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:18 pm

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 2:45 pm The 'or batter' extends the meaning beyond what I am acquainted with. Additionally, the traditional English pancake (particularly home-tossed) is rather thinner than the modern store-bought form, which seems to be more American. And this is the use of of prototypes which governs on-the-fly morphological analysis, especially in the absence of morphology-sensitive derivation.

The kind of pancake I'm familiar is made with batter in a frying pan, and I'm an American -- are you confusing these with store-bought frozen waffles?

Apart from the walnuts and honey, they match the image at https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... alnuts.jpg. The home-tossed pancakes I am familiar with are unleavened and much thinner - they are normally rolled before adding lemon juice and eating (on Shrove Tuesday).

Those seem fatter than what I was thinking of. Do you have any pics of the home-tossed pancakes you're thinking of?

Edit: I found a pic of them:



Those definitely are thinner than the kind of pancakes I am familiar with, and seem more like crepes.

I think the key difference here is not the store-bought versus non-store-bought but rather the use of a leavening agent or not. For instance, when you said 'store-bought' I was thinking of frozen pancakes, when in fact you can make batter yourself or buy batter from the store and have them come out like typical American pancakes due to the use of a leavening agent.

Edit: I had accidentally written "waffles" in two places where I meant "pancakes".

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:30 pm Those definitely are thinner than the kind of pancakes I am familiar with, and seem more like crepes.

I'm not sure of the difference. I had thought crepe was just a fancy word for pancake, but I may be missing a subtle difference.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:46 pm I think the key difference here is not the store-bought versus non-store-bought but rather the use of a leavening agent or not.

This may well be it, but I'm not sure why batter for English pancakes has to be made the day before use.

Leavening may be a red herring; you can get very thick pancakes without it. Every Sunday I make a Dutch pancake, which gets quite thick— as thick as some cakes, in fact.

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:51 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:30 pm Those definitely are thinner than the kind of pancakes I am familiar with, and seem more like crepes.

I'm not sure of the difference. I had thought crepe was just a fancy word for pancake, but I may be missing a subtle difference.

From looking at the Wiki, apparently crêpe is just a term for a specific kind of pancake that originated in Brittany.

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:51 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:30 pm Those definitely are thinner than the kind of pancakes I am familiar with, and seem more like crepes.

I'm not sure of the difference. I had thought crepe was just a fancy word for pancake, but I may be missing a subtle difference.

Crepes are always extremely thin. About as thin as physically possible. As a result, on a hot plate, they can be made extremely quickly. Basically in a few seconds. Any pancake that's thicker than it absolutely physically has to be, and/or takes more than a few seconds to bake, is not a crepe. (Or at least that's how the word is usually understood in Germany.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:30 pmThose definitely are thinner than the kind of pancakes I am familiar with, and seem more like crepes.

Those look very much like the pancakes we bake in the Netherlands.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 6:01 pmEvery Sunday I make a Dutch pancake, which gets quite thick

Which are funnily named, because that's not at all what Dutch pancakes look like. I've never seen this type of pancakes in the Netherlands, ever.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Sat Nov 08, 2025 8:31 am

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 6:01 pmEvery Sunday I make a Dutch pancake, which gets quite thick

Which are funnily named, because that's not at all what Dutch pancakes look like. I've never seen this type of pancakes in the Netherlands, ever.

I thought the same thing when I saw the actual section in the pancake article on the Wiki on Dutch pannenkoeken.

This must be in the tradition of naming random things in the Anglosphere after the Dutch.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 08, 2025 8:38 amThis must be in the tradition of naming random things in the Anglosphere after the Dutch.

According to Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:According to Sunset magazine, Dutch babies were introduced in the first half of the 1900s at Manca's Cafe, a family-run restaurant that was located in Seattle, Washington, and that was owned by Victor Manca. While these pancakes are derived from the German pancake dish, it is said that the name Dutch baby was coined by one of Victor Manca's daughters, where "Dutch" perhaps was her corruption of the German autonym deutsch. Manca's Cafe claimed that it owned the trademark for Dutch babies in 1942.

JAL

jal wrote: ↑Sat Nov 08, 2025 12:32 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Nov 08, 2025 8:38 amThis must be in the tradition of naming random things in the Anglosphere after the Dutch.

According to Wikipedia:

Wikipedia wrote:According to Sunset magazine, Dutch babies were introduced in the first half of the 1900s at Manca's Cafe, a family-run restaurant that was located in Seattle, Washington, and that was owned by Victor Manca. While these pancakes are derived from the German pancake dish, it is said that the name Dutch baby was coined by one of Victor Manca's daughters, where "Dutch" perhaps was her corruption of the German autonym deutsch. Manca's Cafe claimed that it owned the trademark for Dutch babies in 1942.

JAL

Wait, a cafe is serving babies? And no one intervenes? And Dutch people who have babies are committing a trademark violation?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Nov 08, 2025 12:35 pm And Dutch people who have babies are committing a trademark violation?

Only if they sell them or similarly use them by way of trade. And it could always be resolved the way the use of 'VAX' was - the trademarks are used in different industries.

jal wrote: ↑Sat Nov 08, 2025 8:31 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 3:30 pmThose definitely are thinner than the kind of pancakes I am familiar with, and seem more like crepes.

Those look very much like the pancakes we bake in the Netherlands.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 6:01 pmEvery Sunday I make a Dutch pancake, which gets quite thick

Which are funnily named, because that's not at all what Dutch pancakes look like. I've never seen this type of pancakes in the Netherlands, ever.


JAL

And Americans don't eat quail eggs! (I've never even seen a quail egg!)
- https://youtu.be/7Xgd79wuriQ?si=azWjfLEAD8taPMjm&t=445

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 9:18 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Fri Nov 07, 2025 8:34 am In the case of acorn both components are living morphemes, they've just been obscured by sound changes.

Actually, acorn apparently isn't a compound at all -- according to Etymonline, it goes back to OE æcern and is cognate with ON akarn, Dutch aker, LG Ecker, StG Ecker (loan from Low German?), and Gothic akran, and the idea that it comes from OE ac (ModE oak) and corn is a 15th/16th century folk etymology.

I had no idea that even splitting it into the morphemes "a-corn" is an eggcorn!