Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2026 2:57 pm Only partly related: Congratulations, People of Britain! Not only have you become an Islamic country, but you've also managed it to abolish your Monarchy in the process!

Alhamdulillah, innit.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2026 5:10 pm Alhamdulillah, innit.

Is that the sort of thing an infidel is likely to utter? I'm just not acquainted with the first word. Or is the unlikelihood the point of the response?

Richard W wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2026 7:24 pm

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2026 5:10 pm Alhamdulillah, innit.

Is that the sort of thing an infidel is likely to utter? I'm just not acquainted with the first word. Or is the unlikelihood the point of the response?

It is something I'd expect someone living in the Islamic Republic of Britain to say.

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Aug 14, 2026 2:57 pmOnly partly related: Congratulations, People of Britain! Not only have you become an Islamic country, but you've also managed it to abolish your Monarchy in the process! Thankfully, the Prime Minister of Israel has figured it all out, and can tell you all about it:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/ ... ear-weapon

Indeed; it happened under our noses for the past several years and nobody noticed. We're all very grateful to him for letting us know.

Ah, the word 'Islamic', a sure sign as always that you can safely whatever is being said.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 3:13 pm Ah, the word 'Islamic', a sure sign as always that you can safely ??? whatever is being said.

My guess is "ignore". Do I win a prize?

alice wrote: ↑Sun Aug 16, 2026 2:08 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Aug 15, 2026 3:13 pm Ah, the word 'Islamic', a sure sign as always that you can safely ??? whatever is being said.

My guess is "ignore". Do I win a prize?

Correct! I'd buy you a Count Binface figurine, but the temptation to keep it for myself is too strong.

Serious question: how many of the old-school British higher-ranges-of-the-upper-class types who would have been solidly Tory (except for the occasional contrarian leftist) 20 years ago are Reform now?

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2026 9:22 am Serious question: how many of the old-school British higher-ranges-of-the-upper-class types who would have been solidly Tory (except for the occasional contrarian leftist) 20 years ago are Reform now?

Probably not that many; R*f@rm's appeal is generally among the lower classes. Their leader's constituency does, after all, include the most deprived area in England.

I think it's generally true that fascism as we understand it appeals less to the the upper classes than to the lower classes. Fascists aren't known for being "cultured", after all.

alice wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2026 2:34 pm

Probably not that many; R*f@rm's appeal is generally among the lower classes. Their leader's constituency does, after all, include the most deprived area in England.

I think it's generally true that fascism as we understand it appeals less to the the upper classes than to the lower classes. Fascists aren't known for being "cultured", after all.

Thank you. Though part of my own ideas about fascism is that it has both poor supporters who see it as a great way to stick it to rich snobs and rich supporters who see it as a great way to keep the rabble under control. And the same applies to different levels of formal education, too. Blue collar workers see it as a great way to stick it to academic snobs, and pseudo-smart people who may or may not have fancy degrees see it as a great way to ensure that important decisions are made by superior masterminds like themselves.

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2026 3:00 pm Though part of my own ideas about fascism is that it has both poor supporters who see it as a great way to stick it to rich snobs and rich supporters who see it as a great way to keep the rabble under control.

Does this line up with the way people who weren't explicitly in favour of Hitler still regarded him with some degree of positivity because they hoped he might keep the communists in check?

alice wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2026 2:34 pm Probably not that many; R*f@rm's appeal is generally among the lower classes. Their leader's constituency does, after all, include the most deprived area in England.

Lower income areas are more desperate (https://snapshotsofthelabyrinth.photo.b ... -planning/), but the actual fascists are often small business owners from those areas cosplaying as "the working class" (by which they mean "white" regardless of how much actual work is being done by whom).

alice wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2026 2:34 pm I think it's generally true that fascism as we understand it appeals less to the the upper classes than to the lower classes. Fascists aren't known for being "cultured", after all.

Fascists always want to be seen as the defenders of culture. (My understanding is that even German Kultur is similar enough, but not exactly the same.) I hope that plan fell through, at least in the imagination of the majority.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2026 9:12 pm Does this line up with the way people who weren't explicitly in favour of Hitler still regarded him with some degree of positivity because they hoped he might keep the communists in check?

Have you seen the movie Cabaret?

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2026 3:00 pm

alice wrote: ↑Wed Aug 19, 2026 2:34 pm

Probably not that many; R*f@rm's appeal is generally among the lower classes. Their leader's constituency does, after all, include the most deprived area in England.

I think it's generally true that fascism as we understand it appeals less to the the upper classes than to the lower classes. Fascists aren't known for being "cultured", after all.

Thank you. Though part of my own ideas about fascism is that it has both poor supporters who see it as a great way to stick it to rich snobs and rich supporters who see it as a great way to keep the rabble under control. And the same applies to different levels of formal education, too. Blue collar workers see it as a great way to stick it to academic snobs, and pseudo-smart people who may or may not have fancy degrees see it as a great way to ensure that important decisions are made by superior masterminds like themselves.

And a certain "edgy" public school boy who sang "Gas 'em all" because he thought that was as funny as a whoopee cushion when he was a teenager. And they still thought he was leadership material, so they made him a prefect.

I have my doubts about the upper classes.

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 11:20 am I have my doubts about the upper classes.

As you should!

As it happens, I'm reading a huge book of Orwell's essays. His estimation (mid-1940s) was that though the British upper class (what he called the English upper class) was inclined to Hitler, they weren't captured by fascism because they were a) too stupid to understand it, and b) unconsciously trained in patriotism and war so that they simply couldn't surrender the country to Hitler.

How much has this changed?

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 3:43 pm

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Tue Sep 08, 2026 11:20 am I have my doubts about the upper classes.

As you should!

As it happens, I'm reading a huge book of Orwell's essays. His estimation (mid-1940s) was that though the British upper class (what he called the English upper class) was inclined to Hitler, they weren't captured by fascism because they were a) too stupid to understand it, and b) unconsciously trained in patriotism and war so that they simply couldn't surrender the country to Hitler.

How much has this changed?

I couldn't really say, because I don't know anyone from the upper classes really well. In research institutes, and most universities, which is where most of my experience has been, you don't get to rub shoulders with the real upper crust. The impression I get though, is that both patriotism and anti-patriotism are at a bit of a low ebb in this country generally. The main invokers of patriotism in public life are politicians (who sound fake when they do), the newspapers (who mainly use it as the last refuge of a scoundrel), sport (football, rugby, cricket, and the Olympics) and Remembrance Sunday. The last two are the most sincere, but they are intermittent. Remembrance Sunday only comes round once a year.

Britain hasn't faced a real threat in forty years. I'm just old enough to remember the Falklands, and the massive royal weddings of the early eighties. Both of those acted as a stimulant to old-fashioned patriotism. But the Falklands were won back quickly, and the fairytale mood of the royal weddings went sour in quite a short time.

If I have any thought more to the purpose I'll post them.

This is not directly about politics, but it is about Britain, and about the British class structure, and its portrayal in pop culture.

Over on TV Tropes, there's a page called "Quintessential British Gentleman": https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ ... hGentleman

It deals with popular perceptions, around the world, of British upper-class men, and unfortunately, in all too many people's eyes, British people in general.

In the last paragraph of the introductory section, there is, as I write this, the sentence: "The fact that old-school British upper-class men were expected to be athletic while young, and highly competitive or even domineering, is usually left out of fictional descriptions of the type."

OK, disclosure time: I wrote that sentence and put it there. I did that, IIRC, at some point in the second half of the 2010s. Now, the fact that in all the time since then, none of all the people who edited that page felt a need to remove it might indicate that I was on to something. But I'm not completely sure.

Of course I mean descriptions of upper-class British men in the culture of other countries. I know that the Brits' own pop culture often portrayed or even glorified the more brutal sides of the aristocracy. But in some other places, the stereotypical British aristocrat seems to have been traditionally treated as simply a specific type of ridiculous clown.

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Sep 21, 2026 6:02 am In the last paragraph of the introductory section, there is, as I write this, the sentence: "The fact that old-school British upper-class men were expected to be athletic while young, and highly competitive or even domineering, is usually left out of fictional descriptions of the type."

[...]But in some other places, the stereotypical British aristocrat seems to have been traditionally treated as simply a specific type of ridiculous clown.

Stereotypes don't have to be consistent or rational.

You're right that the old British upper-class was supposed to be athletic— this was a major preoccupation in the public schools (what other countries would call private schools).

This does enter the stereotype sometimes. E.g. China Miéville once criticized C.S. Lewis as "rugger-playing". This is nonsense: Lewis was terrible at sports, hated the public schools, and had zero interest in rugby. But to Miéville Lewis was conservative, therefore upper-crust, and thus had to be a jock.

There's also a stereotype of upper-class Brits as tall, thin, and utterly useless— this probably owes a lot to P.G. Wodehouse.