Zompist Bboard Again

masako wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:58 pm I'm looking for natlang examples of epenthetic consonants, I would appreciate info from anyone that knows, thank you.

What kind of epenthetic consonants?

We got /k p/ or /c k/ epenthesis after non-syllabic /i u/ in Tibetan(?) and t-epenthesis in (at least Severn) Ojibwe when the person prefixes are added to roots beginning with vowels (anohkii "he/she works" ni-t-anohkii "i work" ki-t-anohkii "you work")

I don't have them in front of me, but I've seen plenty of examples of /h/ used to break up hiatus.

Excrescent /j w/ are extremely common in such situations.

French has the “-t-”, such as in a-t-il, though IIRC that’s more of a retention of a previously lost consonant. (But it might get restored by analogy in newer verbs.)

masako wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:58 pm I'm looking for natlang examples of epenthetic consonants, I would appreciate info from anyone that knows, thank you.

Peter Staroverov's dissertation has an appendix with a list of natlangs and their epenthetic consonants. Starts on page 410 IINM.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:29 am I don't have them in front of me, but I've seen plenty of examples of /h/ used to break up hiatus.

/ʔ/ breaks up hiatus just as well

masako wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:58 pm I'm looking for natlang examples of epenthetic consonants, I would appreciate info from anyone that knows, thank you.

There's a collection at Wikipedia. Among the hiatus breakers, Pali offers -m- / -d- / -y-, though these can often (but not always) just be survivals from older Indic.

masako wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:58 pmI'm looking for natlang examples of epenthetic consonants, I would appreciate info from anyone that knows, thank you.

I would assume you've already checked Wikipedia?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Dec 05, 2022 4:07 am

masako wrote: ↑Fri Dec 02, 2022 9:58 pmI'm looking for natlang examples of epenthetic consonants, I would appreciate info from anyone that knows, thank you.

I would assume you've already checked Wikipedia?

You assume correctly, but as it turns out, I was actually looking for interfix.

Thank you to everyone who replied with info and suggestions.

I'd like your opinions on romanization!

Here's the consonant inventory for Erdán:

	Labials	Dentals	Palatals	Velars	Pharyngeal	Glottal
Plosives	p	t		k		ʔ
Fricatives	v [β]	s d [ð]	š [ʃ]	g [ɣ]
Nasals	m	n
Liquids		l r
Semivowels	w		y [j]		ʕ

The values are those of the IPA except where noted.

The vowels are a e i o u, all of these with their IPA vowels, execpt u sometimes realized [ɯ] according to vowel harmony. There's also a tone system that's not entirely worked out yet.
Most consonants can be syllabic. These are often realized with a very short version of the following vowels.

A few examples:

šlosyuʕá [ʃǒ.los.ju˦˥.ʕa˥] 'of the factories'
Arʔašóma [ar.ʔa˦˥.ʃo˥ma˥˩] (a city name)
o nóše sgrašše sòvr o nóše aldúše ì mʕigi [o no˦.ʃe˥˩ săɣ.raʃ.ʃe so˩βŏr o no˦.ʃe˥˩ a˥˩l.ðɯ˥.ʃe˥˩ i꜖m.ʕiɣi] 'My cigarette smoke mixed with the smoke of my .38.'
Nnodsmè ʕOndnò mkos šés [nǒ.noð.sĕ.me˩ ʕon.dǒ.no˩ mǒ.kos ʃe˦˥s] 'Nnodson ʕOndne says hello'
Teʕ vràda vošʔo! [teʕ βăra꜖ða βoʃ.ʔo] 'I find you remarkably unpleasant, besides I have it on very good authority that your sister is a lady of very loose morals.'

Now that romanization is perfectly serviceable for conlanging.

The problem is, I'd like to use the conworld for fiction writing, at which point I believe having Nnodson ʕOndne and his friend Goʔdkon driving the mean streets of Arʔašóma might be a bit taxing for the reader.
Any ideas on how I could make this a little palatable? If at all possible, I'd like to keep the language somewhat alien sounding. I'm tempting to go the pulp SF route and just use apostrophes whenever possible, but I'd like to have your opinion on that.

As you go for using "typewriter letters" for IPA symbols elsewhere (d for [ð], g for [ɣ], etc.) and would need to explain the pronounciation to your readers anyway, why not go the full hog and do it everywhere, e.g. x for [ʃ], h or q for ʕ, apostrophe or h for [ʔ] ? That would be exotic enough, but not stranger than pinyin and easy to type and read.

If you are open to an unconventional, but potentially familiar romanization of /ʔ, ʕ/ you could look into the Arabizi chat alphabet which uses <2> and <3> respectively.

Or if you want your readers not to be taxed, h for /ʕ/, and ' for /ʔ/. The š is already an unusual letter, and having what look like random question points in fantasy words will probably just confuse the audience (and you can't be sure they'll read any appendix about the language either way).

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 5:15 am The problem is, I'd like to use the conworld for fiction writing, at which point I believe having Nnodson ʕOndne and his friend Goʔdkon driving the mean streets of Arʔašóma might be a bit taxing for the reader.
Any ideas on how I could make this a little palatable? If at all possible, I'd like to keep the language somewhat alien sounding. I'm tempting to go the pulp SF route and just use apostrophes whenever possible, but I'd like to have your opinion on that.

In that case I think I’d go with:

/p t k ʔ/ ⟨p t k ʼ⟩
/β s ð ʃ ɣ/ ⟨v s th sh g⟩
/m n/ ⟨m n⟩
/l r/ ⟨l r⟩
/w y ʕ/ ⟨w y gh⟩

So now Nnothson Ghondne and his buddy Goghthkon can drive around Arʼashóma, and everyone’s happy with it. The choice of /ʕ/ ⟨gh⟩ is inspired by Maltese ⟨għ⟩, and names like Gaza and Gomorrah. (Of course, people will still mispronounce the names, but they’ll do that anyway.)

Oh, and here’s the other sample sentences:

o nóshe sgrashshe sòvr o nóshe althúshe ì mghigi
Nnodsmè Ghondnò mkos shés
Tegh vràtha voshʼo!

EDIT: Thinking about this a bit more, ⟨rh⟩ for /ʕ/ might work too, given that the ‘bunched r’ is pretty similar to [ʕ] anyway. I think it looks slightly less ‘alien’, which may or may not be an advantage: Goghthkon vs Gorhthkon, mghigi vs mrhigi.

In fiction, I often represent words in such a way as I think the audience will find pronounceable and that I find aesthetically pleasing, rather than trying to stick to a rigorously scientific Romanisation. Not being sure of the aesthetic goals of the project (if any), though, I'm not sure if this route would work for you or not.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:06 am As you go for using "typewriter letters" for IPA symbols elsewhere (d for [ð], g for [ɣ], etc.) and would need to explain the pronounciation to your readers anyway, why not go the full hog and do it everywhere, e.g. x for [ʃ], h or q for ʕ, apostrophe or h for [ʔ] ? That would be exotic enough, but not stranger than pinyin and easy to type and read.

I personally feel the same way - I'd use <x> for [ʃ], <q> for [ʕ], and <'> for [ʔ] myself.

Thanks a lot everyone!

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 8:26 am In fiction, I often represent words in such a way as I think the audience will find pronounceable and that I find aesthetically pleasing, rather than trying to stick to a rigorously scientific Romanisation. Not being sure of the aesthetic goals of the project (if any), though, I'm not sure if this route would work for you or not.

Yep, that's about what I'm looking for. Ideally, I'd like something that feels alien but is parseable enough for the reader to remember the names.

So now Nnothson Ghondne and his buddy Goghthkon can drive around Arʼashóma, and everyone’s happy with it. The choice of /ʕ/ ⟨gh⟩ is inspired by Maltese ⟨għ⟩, and names like Gaza and Gomorrah. (Of course, people will still mispronounce the names, but they’ll do that anyway.)

ohh, neat! (gh) is exactly what I need. I think I'll use your scheme. (except d for /ð/. That one I liked )

I've incidentally just today included a minor but plot-important fragment of language in the narration (though neither the audience, nor the viewpoint character) will understand its significance yet, and it seems for the moment to be only a piece of internal (and possibly external) wordplay.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:56 am Or if you want your readers not to be taxed, h for /ʕ/, and ' for /ʔ/. The š is already an unusual letter, and having what look like random question points in fantasy words will probably just confuse the audience (and you can't be sure they'll read any appendix about the language either way).

I would go with this. I like š and the rest seems fine, just not the two most exotic letters.

chris_notts wrote: ↑Thu Dec 15, 2022 2:49 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Dec 09, 2022 6:56 am Or if you want your readers not to be taxed, h for /ʕ/, and ' for /ʔ/. The š is already an unusual letter, and having what look like random question points in fantasy words will probably just confuse the audience (and you can't be sure they'll read any appendix about the language either way).

I would go with this. I like š and the rest seems fine, just not the two most exotic letters.

The other criterion is pronunciation, though. <h> for /ʕ/ is fine, but liable for mispronunciation by the linguistically inexperienced; I can’t claim my alternative of <gh> is much better, but the mispronunciation is at least somewhat closer to the real value. I like <š>, but have seen people mispronounce it without even noticing that they’d made a mistake.

(Also, welcome back to the board after your absence! Glad to see you again!)