Zompist Bboard Again

jal wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:25 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 10:56 am I just realized that I pronounce /ju/ as [ɥy(ː)] or [ɥy̆ŭ̯]~[ɥyu̯] depending on environment and any preceding consonant also gets labialized (e.g. cure when pronounced carefully is really [cʷʰɥ̥{y̆ŭ̯,yu̯}ʁˤ] for me).

That's pretty fronted.

/u/ has very great variation in POA in the dialect here, ranging based on environment from [y(ː)] to [u(ː)]. Some more progressive speakers such as my daughter centralize it more generally, but I preserve its back allophone when not preceded by a coronal or palatal consonant (e.g. she will have [ʉ(ː)] where I have [u(ː)]).

Edit: I should note that this [y(ː)] does not sound like, say, German [yː] because it is endolabial rather than exolabial.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:35 am

jal wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:25 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 10:56 am I just realized that I pronounce /ju/ as [ɥy(ː)] or [ɥy̆ŭ̯]~[ɥyu̯] depending on environment and any preceding consonant also gets labialized (e.g. cure when pronounced carefully is really [cʷʰɥ̥{y̆ŭ̯,yu̯}ʁˤ] for me).

That's pretty fronted.

/u/ has very great variation in POA in the dialect here, ranging based on environment from [y(ː)] to [u(ː)]. Some more progressive speakers such as my daughter centralize it more generally, but I preserve its back allophone when not preceded by a coronal or palatal consonant (e.g. she will have [ʉ(ː)] where I have [u(ː)]).

Edit: I should note that this [y(ː)] does not sound like, say, German [yː] because it is endolabial rather than exolabial.

I wonder if the centralization and/or unroundedness of /u/ is what led to /ur/ breaking down in the first place.

jcb wrote: ↑Fri Nov 21, 2025 10:02 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:35 am

jal wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:25 am
That's pretty fronted.

/u/ has very great variation in POA in the dialect here, ranging based on environment from [y(ː)] to [u(ː)]. Some more progressive speakers such as my daughter centralize it more generally, but I preserve its back allophone when not preceded by a coronal or palatal consonant (e.g. she will have [ʉ(ː)] where I have [u(ː)]).

Edit: I should note that this [y(ː)] does not sound like, say, German [yː] because it is endolabial rather than exolabial.

I wonder if the centralization and/or unroundedness of /u/ is what led to /ur/ breaking down in the first place.

Classically /ur/ had a lax nucleus, which likely helped contribute to its getting sucked into NURSE in many cases (in my own dialect even in that case it preserves its roundedness in words like mature, so it does not become truly part of NURSE), with it effectively disproportionating into reduced NURSE(-like) cases and fully tense GOOSE followed by /r/ like cases like tour.

Just from checking, I seem to have a contrast (aside from stress and the first syllable) between mature [məˈtɕʷʰʁ̩ʲʷ(ː)] and nature [ˈne̞tɕʁ̩ˤ(ː)]. I should also note that the NURSE-like vowel in mature feels more fronted than the lettER in nature.

jal wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:25 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 10:56 am I just realized that I pronounce /ju/ as [ɥy(ː)] or [ɥy̆ŭ̯]~[ɥyu̯] depending on environment and any preceding consonant also gets labialized (e.g. cure when pronounced carefully is really [cʷʰɥ̥{y̆ŭ̯,yu̯}ʁˤ] for me).

That's pretty fronted.


JAL

Probably not unusual, though. I realise Travis is talking here about CURE, but one of the most consistent patterns in the thread where several of us posted our vowel formants was how fronted GOOSE is, and a preceding /j/ is likely to be the one of the environments most favouring fronting. Based on spectrograms and listening to the parts of the vowel on their own, I'd have to call my GOOSE after /j/ [yʉ]. (After most consonants it's just [ʉː], but you're only going to get anything approaching a real before /l/.)

anteallach wrote: ↑Sat Nov 22, 2025 7:40 am

jal wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 11:25 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Nov 20, 2025 10:56 am I just realized that I pronounce /ju/ as [ɥy(ː)] or [ɥy̆ŭ̯]~[ɥyu̯] depending on environment and any preceding consonant also gets labialized (e.g. cure when pronounced carefully is really [cʷʰɥ̥{y̆ŭ̯,yu̯}ʁˤ] for me).

That's pretty fronted.


JAL

Probably not unusual, though. I realise Travis is talking here about CURE, but one of the most consistent patterns in the thread where several of us posted our vowel formants was how fronted GOOSE is, and a preceding /j/ is likely to be the one of the environments most favouring fronting. Based on spectrograms and listening to the parts of the vowel on their own, I'd have to call my GOOSE after /j/ [yʉ]. (After most consonants it's just [ʉː], but you're only going to get anything approaching a real [u] before /l/.)

I don't have a single distinct CURE phoneme myself -- rather my CURE split into GOOSE + /r/ (as in tour and emphasized sure and mature), NURSE (as in sure and your when not emphasized), "rounded NURSE" (as in mature when not emphasized), and NORTH/FORCE (as in your when emphasized). You could consider my "rounded NURSE" to be a survival of a distinct CURE though.

Somewhat related to the discussion about the word "child" that we had a while ago, what would you say what the term "growing up" refers to? Only to adolescence and the teen years, or to everything from birth to adulthood?

Of course five-year-olds aren't exactly grown up by adult standards, but I'd still expect the average five-year-old to be more grown up than the average five-month-old in a number of ways.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:56 am Somewhat related to the discussion about the word "child" that we had a while ago, what would you say what the term "growing up" refers to? Only to adolescence and the teen years, or to everything from birth to adulthood?

Of course five-year-olds aren't exactly grown up by adult standards, but I'd still expect the average five-year-old to be more grown up than the average five-month-old in a number of ways.

I would probably consider "growing up" to be the years from elementary school through the teen years offhand.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 11:13 am
I would probably consider "growing up" to be the years from elementary school through the teen years offhand.

Ah, thank you!

Any additional opinions, anyone?

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:56 am Somewhat related to the discussion about the word "child" that we had a while ago, what would you say what the term "growing up" refers to? Only to adolescence and the teen years, or to everything from birth to adulthood?

On the literal level, it refers to attaining adult size, which takes till mid teenage.

Metaphorically, it means reaching maturity, which takes longer, but it's also a lot more subjective. It often means accepting the burdens of adulthood, like getting a job or getting past adolescent emotions or dealing with a catastrophe.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 11:33 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 9:56 am Somewhat related to the discussion about the word "child" that we had a while ago, what would you say what the term "growing up" refers to? Only to adolescence and the teen years, or to everything from birth to adulthood?

On the literal level, it refers to attaining adult size, which takes till mid teenage.

Metaphorically, it means reaching maturity, which takes longer, but its also a lot more subjective. It often means accepting the burdens of adulthood, like getting a job or getting past adolescent emotions or dealing with a catastrophe.

I interpreted the question in the context of things like "I was born in (place) X but grew up in (place) Y" and what age range the "grew up" would apply to.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 11:33 am

On the literal level, it refers to attaining adult size, which takes till mid teenage.

Metaphorically, it means reaching maturity, which takes longer, but it's also a lot more subjective. It often means accepting the burdens of adulthood, like getting a job or getting past adolescent emotions or dealing with a catastrophe.

Thank you. How early do you think it starts? Birth?

People who knew my daughter at an earlier stage (baby, young toddlerhood) definitely say she's "grown up so much" about as often as "grown so much" in a more general sense. I think "grown up" is more likely when she does something she couldn't the last time they met, such as talking more clearly, or a physical ability, while "grown so much" is like, commenting on her size.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 11:46 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 11:33 am On the literal level, it refers to attaining adult size, which takes till mid teenage.

Metaphorically, it means reaching maturity, which takes longer, but it's also a lot more subjective. It often means accepting the burdens of adulthood, like getting a job or getting past adolescent emotions or dealing with a catastrophe.

Thank you. How early do you think it starts? Birth?

"Grown up" implies completion, so you wouldn't normally say that a toddler or an 8-year-old is "grown up". (And of course "a grownup" is an adult.)

But there's always nuances. As Travis notes, you can say that a child has "grown up a lot this year" where you just mean that they're taller. And the metaphorical sense can involve a process, so you can say something like "I started to grow up when my parents got divorced."

I'd also say that "grow up" can mean "spend one's formative years"— e.g. I'd say that I grew up in Western Springs, because I lived there for my first 12 years, witthout meaning that I was fully adult when we moved.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 1:14 pm I'd also say that "grow up" can mean "spend one's formative years"— e.g. I'd say that I grew up in Western Springs, because I lived there for my first 12 years, witthout meaning that I was fully adult when we moved.

That's the sense I intended myself.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Dec 04, 2025 1:14 pm
"Grown up" implies completion, so you wouldn't normally say that a toddler or an 8-year-old is "grown up".

But would you say they're growing up?

I have the feeling (as a non-native speaker), that "to grown up in" is always used in the past tense or perfect, and never in the present or progressive? In Dutch it's the same, I'd say, where "opgroeien in" is also used in the perfect or past. As for what I'd consider the age span, I'd say from toddler or kindergarten age to at least mid puberty?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 05, 2025 12:21 pm I have the feeling (as a non-native speaker), that "to grown up in" is always used in the past tense or perfect, and never in the present or progressive? In Dutch it's the same, I'd say, where "opgroeien in" is also used in the perfect or past. As for what I'd consider the age span, I'd say from toddler or kindergarten age to at least mid puberty?

I think it is seemingly used only in the past tense or with perfect aspect because one typically uses it with people who have already grown up, not people who haven't really grown up yet. It is grammatical to use it in the future, for instance, even if using it with the future perfect is more typical.

jal wrote: ↑Fri Dec 05, 2025 12:21 pm I have the feeling (as a non-native speaker), that "to grown up in" is always used in the past tense or perfect, and never in the present or progressive?

Your feeling is wrong. The abstract uses are robust, as in Around 2.6 million children are growing up in households without enough food,... It's not too difficult to find geographical examples for the present tenses. Incidentally, you overlooked the non-finite forms, which are also quite common.

"...and these are some of the experiences I made back when I was growing up..."

Would experiences from early childhood belong in such a report?