Zompist Bboard Again

/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p b t d k g ʔ/ <p b t d k/qu g 7>
/s z ʃ ʒ h/ <s z x j h>
/w j/ <8 y>
/r/ <l>

Vowels:
Short vowels: /a e i o/ <v r i c>
Long vowels: /aː eː iː oː/ <o a e aw>

8awgek jogrk yojgi8chnrm hoz yowquo
yotsvp prjen yoyvrgizengwim nawsr7ike

I have questions

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:14 pm I have questions

In that case, what questions are they?

Consonants:
/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p b t d k g ʔ/ <p b t d k g '>
/s z ʃ ʒ h/ <s z x j h>
/w j/ <w y>
/r/ <r>

Consonant is doubled intervocalically if it belongs to the coda.

/ng/ <n'g>
/ŋg/ <ngg>
/ŋ./<nng>
/n.ŋ/<n'ng>

<'> word-initially.

Vowels:
Short vowels: /a e i o/ <a e i o>
Long vowels: /aː eː iː oː/ <aa ee ii oo> (written single in open syllable)

Hyphen is used for separating identical vowel hiatuses.

Orthography is done per morpheme. So, /jaːwkwaː.aːj/ is written <yawkwa-aay> with single a because the morpheme ya- ends with a vowel, even though the next morpheme is -w-. An exception is <'> and <-> for disambiguation.

Sample sentences:
/peʒiːŋanik jaːga.ojaːksej/ <pejjiingannik yagaoyaaksey>
/haːzem rak peʔoːm jaːwkwaː.aːj/ <haazem rak pe'oom yawkwa-aay>

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:58 pm For the vowels, short vowels can only appear in closed syllables (i.e. those with a coda), while long vowels can occur in any syllable.

But in your sample sentence, there is short vowel in open syllables.

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:58 pm /woːgek ʒaːgek jaːʒgiwohnem haːz jaːwkwaː/
/jaːtsap peʒiːŋ jaːjargiziːŋwim noːseʔikiː/

Xwtek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:10 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:58 pm For the vowels, short vowels can only appear in closed syllables (i.e. those with a coda), while long vowels can occur in any syllable.

But in your sample sentence, there is short vowel in open syllables.

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 7:58 pm /woːgek ʒaːgek jaːʒgiwohnem haːz jaːwkwaː/
/jaːtsap peʒiːŋ jaːjargiziːŋwim noːseʔikiː/

You syllabified it wrongly:

/woː.gek ʒaː.gek jaːʒ.giw.oh.nem haːz jaːw.kwaː/
/jaː.tsap peʒ.iːŋ jaː.jar.giz.iːŋ.wim noː.seʔ.ik.iː/

This might look a bit weird, but in fact English has the same rule about short vowels, and syllabifies words the same way (e.g. comma, honey are /kɒm.ə/, /hʌn.i/).

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:31 am You syllabified it wrongly:

One more question, is syllabification phonemic?

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:53 pm

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Mon Dec 30, 2019 9:14 pmI have questions

In that case, what questions are they?

Kath is talking about a Nort post. There is no need to state the questions.

The fun thing about <7> /ʔ/ and <8> /w/ is that both are attested in real world orthographies. IIRC <7> is an approximation of IPA <ʔ>, and <8> is an abbreviation of French-style <ou> [​u w] in the consonant value (<u> was placed on top of <o>, then they merged as <ȣ>, and now that has been further merged with <8>—Wikipedia says <ȣ> has Byzantine origins but I think it's a coincidence...).

I imagine there are writing systems out there that have <r> /e/, like how Hindi speakers read Sanskrit syllabic <ṛ> as /rɪ/, or how non-rhotic English speakers read software names with <Cr#> like <Tumblr> and <chattr> with /ə#/. I don't know about <v> /a/.

Ser wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 10:51 am I imagine there are writing systems out there that have <r> /e/, like how Hindi speakers reads Sanskrit syllabic <ṛ> as /rɪ/, or how non-rhotic English speakers read software names with <Cr#> like <Tumblr> and <chattr> with /ə#/. I don't know about <v> /a/.

<v> for schwa is attested in various languages, like Cherokee (where it's /ə̃/) and Rvwang, but <v> specifically for short /a/ is from Creek. <r> is occasionally used for a front rounded vowel, like Natqgu /ɞ/; there's also Wutung <ur> /ɵ/. <c> is for <ɔ> in Natqgu.

Xwtek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 8:06 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:31 am You syllabified it wrongly:

One more question, is syllabification phonemic?

No. I don’t see how this could happen anyway.

The fun thing about <7> /ʔ/ and <8> /w/ is that both are attested in real world orthographies. IIRC <7> is an approximation of IPA <ʔ>, and <8> is an abbreviation of French-style <ou> [​u w] in the consonant value (<u> was placed on top of <o>, then they merged as <ȣ>, and now that has been further merged with <8>—Wikipedia says <ȣ> has Byzantine origins but I think it's a coincidence...).

In particular, ⟨7⟩ is from Squamish, and ⟨8⟩ (really ⟨ȣ⟩) is from Wyandot, Western Abenaki and Algonquin.

Another question, is there any diphthongs or vowel hiatus? (If it's not so, I aim to drop <'> intervocalically) Also, is absence of glottal stop contrastive word initially? (If it's not so, I also aim to drop <'> word initially)

New lang from the same family as the last one!

/pʰ p b t̪ʰ t d tʰ t d kʰ k g/
/ʈ͡ʂʰ ʈ͡ʂ ɖ͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ t͡ɬʰ t͡ɬ/
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/
/f s z ɕ ʐ ɬ x ɣ/
/w ɾ j/
/a e i u o/ + length

The "retroflex" series are actually just apical or laminal (depending on speaker) postalveolar, a la Polish or Russian, while the palatoalveolar ones are strongly palatalised. (C)(j;w)V(C) syllables.

/pʰ p b t̪ʰ t d tʰ t d kʰ k g/ f p b ch th dh c t d x k g
/ʈ͡ʂʰ ʈ͡ʂ ɖ͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ t͡ɬʰ t͡ɬ/ ċ ṭ ḍ ź ć ǵ cl tl
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/ m nh n yn ng
/f s z ɕ ʐ ɬ x ɣ/ v s z ś j l h ḫ
/w ɾ j/ w r y
/a e i u o/ a e i u o
/aː eː iː uː oː/ ā ē ī ū ō

Xwtek wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 9:17 pm Another question, is there any diphthongs or vowel hiatus? (If it's not so, I aim to drop <'> intervocalically) Also, is absence of glottal stop contrastive word initially? (If it's not so, I also aim to drop <'> word initially)

No diphthongs, and glottal stop is not contrastive word-initially, but there is vowel hiatus. So you can drop ⟨ʼ⟩ word-initially, but not intervocalically.

Here’s some sentences with vowel hiatus, if you want:

/peʒiːŋanik jaːga.ojaːksej/
/haːzem rak peʔoːm jaːwkwaː.aːj/

Also, now that I’ve got a few responses, here’s my own romanization:

/m n ŋ/ ⟨m n ng⟩
/p b t d k g ʔ/ ⟨p b t d k g ʔ⟩
/s z ʃ ʒ h/ ⟨s z sh zh h⟩
/w j/ ⟨w y⟩
/r/ ⟨r⟩
/a e i o aː eː iː oː/ ⟨a e i o aa ee ii oo⟩

So the sample sentences are:

⟨woogek zhaagek yaazhgiwohnem haaz yaawkwaa⟩
⟨yaatsap pezhiing yaayergiziingwim nooseʔiki⟩
⟨pezhiinganik yaagaoyaaksey⟩
⟨haazem rak peʔoom yaawkwaaaay⟩ (although I may change my romanization to account for hiatuses, since ⟨aaaa⟩ looks weird… maybe ⟨aa’aa⟩ or something)

Knit Tie’s language:

/pʰ p b t̪ʰ t d tʰ t d kʰ k g/ ⟨ph p b th t d ṯh ṯ ḏ kh k g⟩
/ʈ͡ʂʰ ʈ͡ʂ ɖ͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ t͡ɬʰ t͡ɬ/ ⟨čh č ž ćh ć ź ƛh ƛ⟩
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/ ⟨m n ṉ ń ng⟩
/f s z ɕ ʐ ɬ x ɣ/ ⟨f s z ś ź ł x xh⟩
/w ɾ j/ ⟨w r y⟩
/a e i u o/ ⟨a e i u o⟩ + length ⟨á é í ú ó⟩

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:39 pm /peʒiːŋanik jaːga.ojaːksej/
/haːzem rak peʔoːm jaːwkwaː.aːj/

This vowel is short even if the syllable is open. Also, can you give me the syllabification and morpheme boundaries? (my orthography is sensitive to these)

Xwtek wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:01 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 11:39 pm /peʒiːŋanik jaːga.ojaːksej/
/haːzem rak peʔoːm jaːwkwaː.aːj/

This vowel is short even if the syllable is open.

Thanks for pointing this out! I’d better figure out what happens when a morpheme ending in a short consonant is prefixed to a vowel-initial word… Anyway, just treat this as /jaːgaʔojaːksej/ for now until I figure out something better.

Also, can you give me the syllabification and morpheme boundaries? (my orthography is sensitive to these)

The syllabification is entirely regular, but:

/pe.ʒiː.ŋan.ik jaː.gaʔ.oj.aːk.sej/
/haː.zem rak peʔ.oːm jaːw.kwaː.aːj/

And the morpheme boundaries (with gloss) are:

peʒiŋ

person

-anik

dual

jaːga-

3d.ABS

ojaːk

hungry

-sej

recent.past

haːz

stone

-em

GEN

rak

on

peʔoːm

water

-∅

ERG

jaː-

3s.ABS

w-

2s.ERG

kwaː

see

-aːj

REM

/m n ŋ/ <m n ng>
/p b t d k g ʔ/ <p b t d k g q>
/s z ʃ ʒ h/ <s z x j h>
/w j/ <w y>
/r/ <r>

/a e i o/ <aCC eCC iCC oCC>
/aː eː iː oː/ <a e i o>

/woːgek ʒaːgek jaːʒgiwohnem haːz jaːwkwaː/
/jaːtsap peʒiːŋ jaːjargiziːŋwim noːseʔikiː/

Wogekk jagekk yajgiwwohhnemm haz yawkwa. Yatsapp pejjing yayarrgizzingwimm noseqqikki.

This looks horrible and it seems that short vowels are more frequent than long vowels in closed syllables. Let's redo it accounting for that.

/a e i o/ <a e i o>
/aː eː iː oː/ <a~aa e~ee i~ii o~oo>
Long vowels are spelled double in closed syllables. VC.V sequences are spelled with a middle dot as a disambiguator.

/woːgek ʒaːgek jaːʒgiwohnem haːz jaːwkwaː/
/jaːtsap peʒiːŋ jaːjargiziːŋwim noːseʔikiː/

Wogek jagek yajgiw·ohnem haaz yaawkwa. Yaatsap pej·iing yaayargiziingwim noseq·ik·ii.

or:

/a e i o/ <â ê î ô>
/aː eː iː oː/ <a e i o>

/woːgek ʒaːgek jaːʒgiwohnem haːz jaːwkwaː/
/jaːtsap peʒiːŋ jaːjargiziːŋwim noːseʔikiː/

Wogêk jagêk yajgîwôhnêm haz yawkwa. Yatsâp pêjing yayârgîzingwîm nosêqîki.

bradrn’s language
/m n ŋ/ m n ñ
/p b t d k g ʔ/ p b t d k g ‘
/s z ʃ ʒ h/ s z c j h
/w j/ u/w y
/r/ r
W is used in between 2 vowels, u otherwise.
Vowels:
Short vowels: /a e i o/ a e i o
Long vowels: /aː eː iː oː/ ā ē ī ō
alphabet order: Aa Āā Bb Cc Dd Ee Ēē Gg Hh Ii Īī Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn Ññ Oo Ōō Pp Rr Ss Tt Uu Ww Yy Zz ‘
Sample sentences:
/woːgek ʒaːgek jaːʒgiwohnem haːz jaːwkwaː/ Uōgek jāgek yājgiwohnem hāz yāukuā
/jaːtsap peʒiːŋ jaːjargiziːŋwim noːseʔikiː/ Yātsap pejīñ yāyargizīñuim nōse’ikī.
Knit Tie’s language
/pʰ p b t̪ʰ t d tʰ t d kʰ k g/ ph p b q qh x th t d kh k g
/ʈ͡ʂʰ ʈ͡ʂ ɖ͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ t͡ɬʰ t͡ɬ/ ch c j čh č dž łh ł
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/ m n ń ñ ŋ
/f s z ɕ ʐ ɬ x ɣ/ f s z š ž l h w
/w ɾ j/ v r y
/a e i u o/ + length a e i u o + ā ē ī ū ō
Alphabet order: Aa Āā Bb Cc Chch Čč Čhčh Dd Dždž Ee Ēē Ff Gg Hh Ii Īī Jj Kk Khkh Ll Łł Łhłh Mm Nn Ńń Ññ Ŋŋ Oo Ōō Pp Qq Qhqh Rr Ss Šš Tt Thth Uu Ūū Vv Ww Xx Yy Zz Žž

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:50 am The syllabification is entirely regular, but:

What is the rules? Because I don't get it.