Zompist Bboard Again

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 7:37 am OK....

Granting the general principle that fictional psychic abilities are generally not "plausible" by the standards of the real world - how much, or how little, sense does the following scenario make to you?

SCENE: A starship somewhere in space. The CAPTAIN introduces a NEW ARRIVAL - let's call him TOMMY - to the higher-ranking members of the crew. TOMMY is either a time traveler, or a visitor from a fairly different culture or subculture; at any rate, he's unfamiliar with many things that are regular parts of everyday life for the crew of the starship.

CAPTAIN: And here is Katja, our telepath, and this is Maria, our telepathy expert.
TOMMY: Hello! So - your telepath and your telepathy expert are two different people? Do I have to understand that?
KATJA: Look, all the details of how telepathy works and how to make the most of it are really complicated, and just because I've got telepathic abilities that few other people have, it doesn't mean that I know all about that stuff, ok? Besides, I'm more interested in collecting rare old sound files, anyway.
MARIA: It's the same basic concept as when you hire a physiotherapist to work with an athlete.

If it were a work of fiction, I would continue reading.

Thank you, everyone!

Moose-tache: unfortunately, I haven't thought about your question at all.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Apr 19, 2023 8:42 pmThe larger question is, what effect would this have on the culture of the starship and its society? This is, basically, a society in which genetic superiority is real beyond the wildest dreams of any Nazi. Would they be treated as an aggressively exploited underclass? Mamluks who have taken over the apparatus of state? The least likely scenario, to me, is the one in which they are just ordinary technicians.

And they’d be able to conspire more efficiently than is possible in the real world.

Here's a couple more possibilities.

If psyonic abilities are any more common than, say, one in a hundred thousand, they'll have to be part of normal life. Deaf-blind individuals are about one in twenty to thirty thousand, and they've had serious impacts on accessibility in the education system. Ideas of privacy and mental health will have to evolve if there is even a chance that someone with telepathic powers is nearby. In that scenario, telepathy could just be a medical ability like any other, like running fast or having extra cone cells, and would be in the wheelhouse of doctors, both ordinary doctors and specialists. It would be weird elevating someone who happens to have high psychic abilities to an established position. Physical strength is important in a military unit, but they don't have a designated strong person. In a world where these abilities are normalized, this would probably seem like ableist bullshit. Everyone would be on the lookout to see if they have psychic abilities in childhood, and those who do might choose to exploit it as a career or part of an existing career, the same way someone who is freakishly tall may or may not play basketball. Space Force or whatever might want to hire a certain number of people who score above zero on the Psyonics Aptitude Test, but there's no reason they would treat these individuals as any more special than a freakishly tall person.

Another possibility is that psychic abilities are a handicap that require special education. Maybe having the ability to read or even create basic emotions in your parents to get food de-incentivizes you from developing full language, which we know can be associated with delayed cognitive development. I mentioned the deaf-blind earlier. There is ample evidence to show that the deaf-blind have the same range of achievement as anyone else when they receive the proper education, but understanding exactly what that education looks like, and diseminating it across the education system has proven very difficult for a number of reasons, many of them depressingly political and ableist. Perhaps in the future there are pilot programs to educate the psychically-hearing population, and this has resulted in a number of negative side effects, including the near segregation of these children from the rest of the population, or jingoistic training geared towards military service. Now we have our Psyonicist on the starship bridge again, but in a very different context.

Interesting lines of though. Thank you!

The likelihood of my project actually ever seeing the light of day is so low that I often think "what's the point?" The ambition is to hold a book in my hands which tells stories of my world. I'm not so vain as to think that it will be of much interest to anyone else because it is purely fed from conlanging - without conlanging this would never have happened. I've never had much interest in writing fiction until my fictional languages needed a fictional home as a kind of justification for even making them.

It began with me deciding on a starting point - when did these languages begin? When did they separate? This turned into why did they separate? which led to me jotting down ideas which became story outlines - which are getting difficult to keep track of now. There's also ample room between these events in which I could put stories about pretty much anything, but writing about the languages, in-world, always seems to come out; it's actually how I came to decisions on a few points of grammar - I just wrote it, as if I learnt it at the point of writing instead of choosing it. This led to more conlangs, for new peoples, which in turn led to more expositional stories!

From looking at what I have outlines for, and knowing that certain things need tying together, I estimate that a final work would comprise approximately 1500-2000 pages if I don't include illustrations (which is likely because I can't draw for shit). This would include stories and an appendix for the main conlangs - a grammar but not so detailed as to be boring. In all likelihood I'll have to cut bits down at some point.

The problem is time. Time! Between my job and home life I can't seem to fit time in to work on it - and it's difficult to plan time to do it because creativity doesn't exactly work to a schedule. I don't have kids (yet) but that could change relatively soon and then I'll have even less time - so little that all work may be halted for some time. I desperately need to do something about this if I am ever to achieve a goal of having this thing done before I die.... or just give up and accept that it's a pointless endeavour.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 amI've never had much interest in writing fiction until my fictional languages needed a fictional home as a kind of justification for even making them.

Oddly enough, it's been exactly the opposite for me. What little, limited conlanging I've done has been entirely because I wanted to have half-way plausible names for some of my fictional characters.

or just give up and accept that it's a pointless endeavour.

Nah, you might have fewer regrests later if you at least occasionally try to work on it.

the struggle towards the heights is enough to fill a man's heart.

that's easy for me to say: I'm not conworlding or conlanging like to write a book or whatever but, rather, just for the fun of it: i might write one if it ever comes to pass that I have money to survive and also ample free time, which is, i suppose, a thing what might happen someday. writing is fun, but it's a big job.

I would recommend that even though your book may exist as a place for your conlangs to live, that you nevertheless try to make it a good book, because if you succeed it will possibly <no idea how the book market is> be read and enjoyed by people.

You know what someone should do ? just publish a book entirely in a conlang. it'd be so obtuse and hostile to any reader that it's sure to gather cult following (¿¿?). Bonus points if a future archeologist finds it and it confuses everyone for like a decade or two. bonus bonus points if it's entirely in the conlang's conscript.

Torco wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 12:37 pmYou know what someone should do ? just publish a book entirely in a conlang. it'd be so obtuse and hostile to any reader that it's sure to gather cult following (¿¿?). Bonus points if a future archeologist finds it and it confuses everyone for like a decade or two. bonus bonus points if it's entirely in the conlang's conscript.

Add weird pictures too though, so it’s like the Codex Seraphinus or Voynich Manuscript.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 am I've never had much interest in writing fiction until my fictional languages needed a fictional home as a kind of justification for even making them.

I believe Tolkien said the same thing.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 am Tolkienesque rant

Do we get a welsh lord of the rings out of this perchance?

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 am The likelihood of my project actually ever seeing the light of day is so low that I often think "what's the point?" The ambition is to hold a book in my hands which tells stories of my world.

then thats the point: to have a collection of your world's stories.

I'm not so vain as to think that it will be of much interest to anyone else because it is purely fed from conlanging -

I'd wager that, if you asked fans of the books of J.Tolkien or C.Paolini, just how much they love the conlangs in them, most would reply "I read these books for the stories, not the histories of words."

(to which Tolkien might have gone "pf, posers.")

This led to more conlangs, for new peoples, which in turn led to more expositional stories!

not sure why the eyeroll is there - that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

From looking at what I have outlines for, and knowing that certain things need tying together, I estimate that a final work would comprise approximately 1500-2000 pages

Maybe start small...little scenes, flash fictions, moments and slice-of-life from your conworld -- think of an anthology, not a novel.

Don't worry about tying things together - just write down the things you can think of, when you can think of them.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:02 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 am Tolkienesque rant

Do we get a welsh lord of the rings out of this perchance?

Because his languages led to stories? Tolkien's was more than that - he had as much drive to write his mythology for England as he did to make languages. I only really have the drive to make languages, it just seems a bit pointless if there's nothing for them to exist in. But, like I said, thinking about languages means one must think about the culture, which in turn leads to more details. And no, I have no interest in writing a novel. To be honest I don't know how Tolkien did it - he must have been a busier man than me!

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:57 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 am I'm not so vain as to think that it will be of much interest to anyone else because it is purely fed from conlanging -

I'd wager that, if you asked fans of the books of J.Tolkien or C.Paolini, just how much they love the conlangs in them, most would reply "I read these books for the stories, not the histories of words."

Maybe - but my stories wouldn't be like Tolkien's... they're more like Greek myths or Norse myths, just less incoherent and often result in "and that's where the word X comes from". One section isn't even a story at all... well it kind of is; it's a diegetic essay written by an in-world scholar about the origins of the languages and explaining how they're related - explaining how some of the weirder cognates are cognates - the idea is to give the whole essay in one of the conlangs and in English, as if I were the translator.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:57 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 amThis led to more conlangs, for new peoples, which in turn led to more expositional stories!

not sure why the eyeroll is there - that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Just because it's more work that needs to be done. I enjoy it when I'm doing it, but it just looks like it will never be "finished".

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:57 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 amFrom looking at what I have outlines for, and knowing that certain things need tying together, I estimate that a final work would comprise approximately 1500-2000 pages

Maybe start small...little scenes, flash fictions, moments and slice-of-life from your conworld -- think of an anthology, not a novel.

Don't worry about tying things together - just write down the things you can think of, when you can think of them.

It's supposed to be an anthology type thing, not a novel. Some stories will tie-in but a lot are just individual. The finer details aren't done yet.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Thu Apr 27, 2023 12:12 am

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:02 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 am Tolkienesque rant

Do we get a welsh lord of the rings out of this perchance?

Because his languages led to stories? Tolkien's was more than that - he had as much drive to write his mythology for England as he did to make languages.

Given that he also re-wrote Beowulf and a few other Old English stories, I'd wager that if he hadn't wanted to do a "mythology for england" or hadn't wanted to merge it with his conlanguage work, he'd have done it.

although bear in mind that, as a professor of Old English and well-knowledged of what was known of Anglo-Saxons at the time, the man knew perfectly well that England already had mythologies.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:57 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 amI'm not so vain as to think that it will be of much interest to anyone else because it is purely fed from conlanging -

I'd wager that, if you asked fans of the books of J.Tolkien or C.Paolini, just how much they love the conlangs in them, most would reply "I read these books for the stories, not the histories of words."

Maybe - but my stories wouldn't be like Tolkien's...

Thats an extremely vague statement; could you clarify, please?

they're more like Greek myths or Norse myths, just less incoherent and often result in "and that's where the word X comes from".

Not seeing a downside to any of this. Aesop and a number of other authors (including the guy who wrote Kim did perfectly well focusing mostly on extreeeeeemely short things that sometimes were less incoherent than a Greek myth & sometimes more incoherent.

One section isn't even a story at all... well it kind of is; it's a diegetic essay written by an in-world scholar about the origins of the languages and explaining how they're related - explaining how some of the weirder cognates are cognates - the idea is to give the whole essay in one of the conlangs and in English, as if I were the translator.

sounds perfectly good to me. Also reminds me of Poul Anderson's Uncleftish Beholding...which is a technical manual about a perfectly ordinary subject - just without any Greek or Latin.

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 10:57 pm

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 amThis led to more conlangs, for new peoples, which in turn led to more expositional stories!

not sure why the eyeroll is there - that sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Just because it's more work that needs to be done. I enjoy it when I'm doing it, but it just looks like it will never be "finished".

Tolkien had the same "problem"...when he died, the majority of his work was labeled "unfinished" for one reason or another.

Jonlang wrote: ↑Wed Apr 26, 2023 11:50 am The likelihood of my project actually ever seeing the light of day is so low that I often think "what's the point?"

To do something you love.

The ambition is to hold a book in my hands which tells stories of my world. I'm not so vain as to think that it will be of much interest to anyone else because it is purely fed from conlanging - without conlanging this would never have happened. I've never had much interest in writing fiction until my fictional languages needed a fictional home as a kind of justification for even making them.

It began with me deciding on a starting point - when did these languages begin? When did they separate? This turned into why did they separate? which led to me jotting down ideas which became story outlines - which are getting difficult to keep track of now. There's also ample room between these events in which I could put stories about pretty much anything, but writing about the languages, in-world, always seems to come out; it's actually how I came to decisions on a few points of grammar - I just wrote it, as if I learnt it at the point of writing instead of choosing it. This led to more conlangs, for new peoples, which in turn led to more expositional stories!

Just keep doing this, and if you have something you want to release to the world, release it. That seems to have been exactly what Tolkien did — we got two polished works from him (The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings); all the rest was edited together by his children posthumously, and is only really of interest to people who already like the world and want to know more about it.

From looking at what I have outlines for, and knowing that certain things need tying together, I estimate that a final work would comprise approximately 1500-2000 pages if I don't include illustrations (which is likely because I can't draw for shit). This would include stories and an appendix for the main conlangs - a grammar but not so detailed as to be boring. In all likelihood I'll have to cut bits down at some point.

You don't need to do everything as one big single huge work.

The problem is time. Time! Between my job and home life I can't seem to fit time in to work on it - and it's difficult to plan time to do it because creativity doesn't exactly work to a schedule. I don't have kids (yet) but that could change relatively soon and then I'll have even less time - so little that all work may be halted for some time.

You might be surprised what you can accomplish just doing a little a day. For my current project, I produce a chapter of about 2500 words every 2-4 days. The thing is currently 136,000 words long. Keep trying things, and you might find a method that works. The reason it takes that long is that I write a preliminary draught about 2000 words, and then edit it by translating it, causing it to expand a little (or a lot — sometimes I get two or three chapters out of what was originally one simply by filling in details, making description clearer, or just randomly imagining up something I hadn't thought of the first time round). I wish I had more time, too — when I don't have a job, I can produce about twice as fast, but the important thing is to try to maintain some sort of consistency, and to always remember why you started in the first place.

I desperately need to do something about this if I am ever to achieve a goal of having this thing done before I die.... or just give up and accept that it's a pointless endeavour.

Thinking of it in these terms won't be good for your ability to produce anything, at least if you're at all like me. Maybe try to relax a bit and let the ideas come when they will?

I had a conworlding idea... But I wonder if it wouldn't feel like a bit of an anomaly, or stretch disbelief a little too far.

Some people may remepber a basic idea about my conworld; Earth and the planet Massotis have been connected for a long time (as in, as soon as there was a biosphere). The connection is by means of long established wormholes gate. On geological scales access opens from time to time, so there's been population exchanges from time to time, and that's why you find similar species -- and humans -- on both planets.
I guess that part works, in any case people react positively to it.

(I explorer a more science fictional side to this. As it turns out, I can't get any decent storytelling from the SF part, so the SF side of things is cancelled. You can think of the wormholes connecting the planet as portals to Narnia )

Now to the new idea. I thought I could add some large scale contact in historical times

Say there's a portal somewhere in the Alps and a few thousands cross it around 400-500 AD to the land of Tarande on Massotis.
Presumably there are crossings today, or else we wouldn't know about the planet at all.

One advantage of the idea is that I can justify Romance, Germanic or even Celtic sounding names in universe. Thz are certainly more relatable. (Names from non European artlangs are difficult.)

So would that make sense? Or would it feel wrong somehow? What do you think?

I generally think that the "take a fictional setting, and introduce real-world humans into it"-approach has been overdone, but if it works for you, go for it. I'm not sure what the problem with names from non-European artlangs is, though.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:07 amOne advantage of the idea is that I can justify Romance, Germanic or even Celtic sounding names in universe. Thz are certainly more relatable. (Names from non European artlangs are difficult.)

I don't understand this at all.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:07 am (I explorer a more science fictional side to this. As it turns out, I can't get any decent storytelling from the SF part, so the SF side of things is cancelled. You can think of the wormholes connecting the planet as portals to Narnia )

Oh, you can just make the wormholes out of unobtanium. Seems to work well enough for most big SF series.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:06 pm I'm not sure what the problem with names from non-European artlangs is, though.

Imralu wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:27 pm

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:07 amOne advantage of the idea is that I can justify Romance, Germanic or even Celtic sounding names in universe. They are certainly more relatable. (Names from non European artlangs are difficult.)

I don't understand this at all.

Readers can be put off by difficult names. Fred and George are I think a little easier than Hunahpu or Ixbalanque. Maybe my concern is a bit outdated and people are more used to it. But I don't know. People have trouble with Russian names in Dostoevsky which suggests the tolerance level isn't too high.

I'm really not bothered by unfamiliar names. But I think I'm not very representative, and I guess most people here aren't either. But maybe I'm unduly bothered about it and readers wouldn't mind.