Zompist Bboard Again

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:53 am Oh, I don’t think this is just a right-wing thing. It happens on the extreme left as well: https://unherd.com/2020/01/cast-out-how ... ty-spiral/. The main difference is that extreme right-wingers are more prominent in mainstream politics than extreme left-wingers are, making them correspondingly more dangerous. (Or at least, this is my impression of the US. Here in Australia neither side has become particularly extreme yet.)

Agreed completely. At a national level, this is more prominent on the right in the US, simply because the right is more prominent in the US, but if you look in the right places you will most definitely see it on the left as well.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 8:21 am Yup, that's the thread I meant.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 08, 2021 7:50 amI am so glad I don’t follow American politics.

Oh, if only it was a US-only thing. Opponents of Covid-19 measures in many countries say stuff like that, and worse. Here's a Twitter thread about a recent rally in Trafalgar Square, London:

https://twitter.com/Shayan86/status/1418915810416934915

I just realised I never got around to looking at this link. So I clicked on it and… again, wow. What did I just read? Vaccines are ‘Satanic’‽ Parliament is ‘doing the bidding of evil’‽ The freemasons are behind it all‽ ‘5G is a direct energy weapon’‽ And, oh yes, our very own Katie Hopkins, most recently seen being deported from Australia after stripping naked in front of a security guard in her hotel quarantine room. (Because this, apparently, is the way to protest against mask-wearing.) This is ridiculous.

It is ridiculous, but unfortunately, I've similar such things before in the past year and a half. That 'purity spiral' concept is interesting.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:56 am It is ridiculous, but unfortunately, I've similar such things before in the past year and a half. That 'purity spiral' concept is interesting.

I'm almost more bothered by purity spirals on the left, as while purity spirals on the right are significant because of the right's clout, the right is the enemy and this kind of thing is to be regarded as a given for them, whereas purity spirals on the left are a different matter because I'm supposed to be on the same side as them, yet I have to place myself in opposition to them when they start espousing extreme ideas (I probably don't need to mention any here) lest I feed into said purity spirals (which makes me seem to them like I'm a right-winger).

Yes, it certainly is good to call out problems, whether that purity spirals, misinformation, faulty logic or immoral activity, whether it's on your own side or another because otherwise your 'own' side could turn out not quite so pleasant and also to keep a healthy debate and society. It's the moral thing to do I think.

MacAnDàil wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 10:14 am Yes, it certainly is good to call out problems, whether that purity spirals, misinformation, faulty logic or immoral activity, whether it's on your own side or another because otherwise your 'own' side could turn out not quite so pleasant and also to keep a healthy debate and society. It's the moral thing to do I think.

Of course it's difficult because many of these people have the dogma seared into their heads that, say, if you question white fragility or cultural appropriation you're or if you even insist on freedom of speech you're the enemy, because of course only right-wingers would question white fragility or cultural appropriation and of course freedom of speech only serves to protect the wrong people.

I don't know where you're getting any of this talk about "the enemy."

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am I don't know where you're getting any of this talk about "the enemy."

Everyone who is on the other side of the dichotomy between us and them.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:00 pm

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:45 am I don't know where you're getting any of this talk about "the enemy."

Everyone who is on the other side of the dichotomy between us and them.

Please cite me one example of left-wingers talking about people who "question white fragility or cultural appropriation" as "the enemy."

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:52 pm Please cite me one example of left-wingers talking about people who "question white fragility or cultural appropriation" as "the enemy."

Those words may not have been used, but the knitters example is a definite example of this sort of thing happening.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 1:16 pm

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 12:52 pm Please cite me one example of left-wingers talking about people who "question white fragility or cultural appropriation" as "the enemy."

Those words may not have been used, but the knitters example is a definite example of this sort of thing happening.

Was it? I'm not sure how much I trust someone whose chief quoted source is James Lindsay (someone who was on the wrong side of Elevatorgate and calls himself "apolitical" while ending his Twitter bio with three American flag emojis). He claims he tried to contact several major "social justice knitters" for balance, and I guess this is supposed to lead us to think that they're all too terrified to speak out for fear of being cancelled, but it could just as well be that they didn't like Haynes' angle and didn't trust him to give a fair account.

Moreover, I don't know how trustworthy I would consider an online magazine that is basically saying "both sides!" during an epidemic of racial violence.

I somehow doubt that one can deny that there are us-versus-them attitudes on both the left and the right, and they get stronger the further from the center one goes, and likewise the line between us and them moves left-ward the further to the left one is, and right-ward the further to the right one is.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:16 pm I somehow doubt that one can deny that there are us-versus-them attitudes on both the left and the right, and they get stronger the further from the center one goes, and likewise the line between us and them moves left-ward the further to the left one is, and right-ward the further to the right one is.

There's nothing you can't do when you believe in constantly shifting the goalposts.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 2:24 pm There's nothing you can't do when you believe in constantly shifting the goalposts.

I see I'm not allowed to reframe what I was saying, because reframing anything one has said would be "shifting the goalposts". In retrospect, I should avoid making concrete examples at all, because someone might try to send me on a wild goose-chase across the Internet to find a specific, documented concrete example (a favorite debating tactic of some), or in this case, when I did provide a specific, documented concrete example, challenge it on the grounds that the wrong people were writing about it on the wrong blog.

Or! Maybe you could just stop trying to make this all about the left when many of us are not fortunate enough to guarantee not being shot on sight because our skin color somehow gets us conflated with terrorists.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:10 pm Or! Maybe you could just stop trying to make this all about the left when many of us are not fortunate enough to guarantee not being shot on sight because our skin color somehow gets us conflated with terrorists.

That was non-sequitur... since when does that there are elements within the left that should be criticized have anything to do with police shootings? Since when does being more-left-wing-than-thou solve anything on the police shootings front?

I'm not talking about police shootings, Travis.

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:58 pm I'm not talking about police shootings, Travis.

Since when are there people who aren't police regularly shooting minorities on sight in America? (There have been a few instances of non-police shootings of minorities, but they are far fewer than the police-inflicted body count.)

Travis B. wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:03 pm

Vijay wrote: ↑Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:58 pm I'm not talking about police shootings, Travis.

Since when are there people who aren't police regularly shooting minorities on sight in America?

........Since the entire history of this country?