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Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:54 pm
by Rounin Ryuuji
I like interdialectal borrowing. It can also allow both forms to continue existing, but with slightly different meanings.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:29 pm
by foxcatdog
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:54 pm
I like interdialectal borrowing. It can also allow both forms to continue existing, but with slightly different meanings.
Frankly it seems like there would have to be a major meaning shift in one or both for both forms to be kept.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Fri Jun 02, 2023 11:16 pm
by keenir
Jonlang wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:51 am
So, I don't know whether to go for /mw/ > /nw/ or > /mm/... I don't really like the sound of /mw/ and geminites are totally a thing in my L conlang. But, I have words where sometimes the /nw/ version sounds better or sometimes the /mm/ sounds better, but there's no phonetic justification for both in either case - one is hamma one is panwa... I could hand waive one instance of an irregular sound change because that happens in natlangs from time to time, but how else could I naturalistically have this duality? Or do I need to just pick one?
You could have both.
foxcatdog wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 9:29 pm
Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 6:54 pm
I like interdialectal borrowing. It can also allow both forms to continue existing, but with slightly different meanings.
Frankly it seems like there would have to be a major meaning shift in one or both for both forms to be kept.
Um, why? So far as I can hear - which, i grant, is not very well - if I say "the bird who is my neighbor is refilling my bird feeder", yes, thats two different meanings. But if I say thats a cool cat", which meaning of "cool" and "cat" am i using?
Okay, I'm not saying this well, i know. Maybe the whole point of keeping both forms, is to maximize literary options? Increase rhyming and-or typographic options.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:39 am
by Jonlang
I suppose I could go /mw/ > /mm/ before a rounded vowel and /mw/ > /nw/ elsewhere... so amwo > ammo, amwa > anwa, it's something of a compromise.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:27 am
by Ares Land
Jonlang wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:39 am
I suppose I could go /mw/ > /mm/ before a rounded vowel and /mw/ > /nw/ elsewhere... so
amwo >
ammo,
amwa >
anwa, it's something of a compromise.
That works too.
I second the recommendation of interdialectal borrowing. It's very common, and you should have some anyway
There are countless examples in French.
caillou is Norman or Picard,
abeille is Occitan instead of
chail, chaillot,
avette
The convenient side of this is you don't even have to come up with a justification. (we don't know why caillou or abeille were borrowed.)
If anything the alternate form can show up in toponymy.
Chaillot endures as a place name.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:23 am
by Jonlang
Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 4:27 am
Jonlang wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 1:39 am
I suppose I could go /mw/ > /mm/ before a rounded vowel and /mw/ > /nw/ elsewhere... so
amwo >
ammo,
amwa >
anwa, it's something of a compromise.
That works too.
I second the recommendation of interdialectal borrowing. It's very common, and you should have some anyway
There are countless examples in French.
caillou is Norman or Picard,
abeille is Occitan instead of
chail, chaillot,
avette
The convenient side of this is you don't even have to come up with a justification. (we don't know why caillou or abeille were borrowed.)
If anything the alternate form can show up in toponymy.
Chaillot endures as a place name.
There's not much dialectal variation really, in sound or meaning.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:11 am
by Ares Land
Jonlang wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:23 am
There's not much dialectal variation really, in sound or meaning.
You mean, in your language? Ok, then. There are other ways to justify the results you want.
Lack of dialectal variation might be a little surprising. Dialect variations shows up even in tiny areas or populations.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 3:25 pm
by Jonlang
Ares Land wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 11:11 am
Jonlang wrote: ↑Sat Jun 03, 2023 10:23 am
There's not much dialectal variation really, in sound or meaning.
You mean, in your language? Ok, then. There are other ways to justify the results you want.
Lack of dialectal variation might be a little surprising. Dialect variations shows up even in tiny areas or populations.
Yeah. There is another dialect but I don't envision much borrowing. Anyhoo, I think I can live with not having my way every time.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Sat Jun 03, 2023 7:23 pm
by Imralu
Jonlang wrote: ↑Fri Jun 02, 2023 10:51 am
So, I don't know whether to go for /mw/ > /nw/ or > /mm/... I don't really like the sound of /mw/ and geminites are totally a thing in my L conlang. But, I have words where sometimes the /nw/ version sounds better or sometimes the /mm/ sounds better, but there's no phonetic justification for both in either case - one is hamma one is panwa...
I would work out what the rules are for my aesthetic tastes there. For example, to me,
panwa sounds better than
pamma because I don't really like two consonants at the same POA close together like this, so I'd make it be mm except where the previous consonant is /p/, /b/, /m/, /w/ etc., which causes dissimilation to nw. The rounded vowel thing makes sense too.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:52 am
by Jonlang
How plausible is it that adverbs could arise from using the instrumental case suffix with adjectives? So fast.INSTR = quickly with the sense of "with/by means of speed". And then later being eroded or the suffix becoming disassociated with the instrumental and thought of as just being the same/similar suffix.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:07 am
by jal
Jonlang wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:52 amHow plausible is it that adverbs could arise from using the instrumental case suffix with adjectives? So fast.INSTR =
quickly with the sense of "with/by means of speed". And then later being eroded or the suffix becoming disassociated with the instrumental and thought of as just being the same/similar suffix.
Even in your example, you use a noun, not an adjective. I'd find it much more plausible the route would be noun + instrumental. Is the instrumental marked on adjectives when a noun is in the instrumental? So "with a large knife" is "large.INSTR knife.INSTR"?
JAL
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:02 pm
by Jonlang
jal wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 9:07 am
Jonlang wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:52 amHow plausible is it that adverbs could arise from using the instrumental case suffix with adjectives? So fast.INSTR =
quickly with the sense of "with/by means of speed". And then later being eroded or the suffix becoming disassociated with the instrumental and thought of as just being the same/similar suffix.
Even in your example, you use a noun, not an adjective. I'd find it much more plausible the route would be noun + instrumental. Is the instrumental marked on adjectives when a noun is in the instrumental? So "with a large knife" is "large.INSTR knife.INSTR"?
JAL
I know it's a noun in my example, that's kinda
why I thought of using the adjective instead, like co-opting the suffix to do a new job and have something a bit different as a result. But no, as it stands adjs don't agree with case marking, only number. It was just a thought.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:24 pm
by Imralu
Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 6:45 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 2:06 am
Elsewhere online I came across this:
https://toaq.net/. I know we don’t discuss loglangs very much here, but this one looks particularly well-done and interesting. Don’t know enough formal semantics to properly assess it though.
Any consonant other than /ŋ/ can appear syllable-initially.
COWARDS!
I agree, but then again, from just looking at it very briefly, it looks like /ŋ/ is reserved for the coda as the sole possible consonant in that position to avoid ambiguity.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:57 pm
by WeepingElf
Jonlang wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:52 am
How plausible is it that adverbs could arise from using the instrumental case suffix with adjectives? So fast.INSTR =
quickly with the sense of "with/by means of speed". And then later being eroded or the suffix becoming disassociated with the instrumental and thought of as just being the same/similar suffix.
Seems perfectly plausible to me. Indeed, I pursue this road in my Hesperic conlang family, where the genitive (which also covers the meaning of instrumental) of an adjective functions as adverb.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:56 am
by hwhatting
WeepingElf wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 1:57 pm
Jonlang wrote: ↑Mon Jun 05, 2023 8:52 am
How plausible is it that adverbs could arise from using the instrumental case suffix with adjectives? So fast.INSTR =
quickly with the sense of "with/by means of speed". And then later being eroded or the suffix becoming disassociated with the instrumental and thought of as just being the same/similar suffix.
Seems perfectly plausible to me. Indeed, I pursue this road in my Hesperic conlang family, where the genitive (which also covers the meaning of instrumental) of an adjective functions as adverb.
Well, it's not immediately plausible if, as stated in the discussion above, adjectives don't agree on case. It would only make sense if the instrumental suffix started being interpreted as an adverbial suffix based on its use with nouns and then became used with adjectives secondarily.
Instrumental case forms becoming adverbs is something that happened e.g. in Russian -
noch'yu night-INSTR "at night",
dnyom day-INSTR "during the day".
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 1:41 pm
by WeepingElf
Of course, if adjectives do not agree with nouns in case, the route "instrumental case of adjective > adverb" is not an option.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 3:53 pm
by Creyeditor
Well, except if adjectives can head a noun phrase on their own and 'inherit' case marking only in these cases, even if they do not usually agree with the head noun in case. Right?
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Tue Jun 06, 2023 9:33 pm
by Moose-tache
This would be pretty easy if the "case ending" is actually a particle. A postposition "orp" might mark instrumental nouns, and then be used with adjectives by plucky young people to mark adverbs, much to the dismay of their elders.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:42 pm
by Ahzoh
Can having a specific set of cases exist as an areal feature? E.g. Languages within an area that are unrelated all possess either an ornative ("with/having x") and privative ("without/lacking x") case, an equative case, or all four.
Underlying premise is these cases are more like a means to create denominative adjectives or adjectives derived from nouns but with noun morphology and behavior.
Re: Conlang Random Thread
Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2023 5:37 pm
by Darren
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Mon Jun 12, 2023 4:42 pm
Can having a specific set of cases exist as an areal feature? E.g. Languages within an area that are unrelated all possess either an ornative ("with/having x") and privative ("without/lacking x") case, an equative case, or all four.
Underlying premise is these cases are more like a means to create denominative adjectives or adjectives derived from nouns but with noun morphology and behavior.
Yes. Ornative (/commitative) and privative are both areal features of Australian langs; although the languages themselves are probably mostly distantly related to each other, the actual case forms weren't universally inherited. A lot of Australian langs have also got causal (due to X) and aversive (for fear of X) cases which are pretty neat.