Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:52 pm**

/pʰ p b t̪ʰ t d tʰ t d kʰ k g/ <ph p b ṭh ṭ ḍ th t d kh k g>
/ʈ͡ʂʰ ʈ͡ʂ ɖ͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ t͡ɬʰ t͡ɬ/ <tsh ts dz ch c j lh ł>
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/ <m ṇ n ny ng>
/f s z ɕ ʐ ɬ x ɣ/ <f s z x ṛ l h q>
/w ɾ j/ <w r y>
/a e i u o/ <a e i u o> + length <VV>

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:44 pm**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 2:09 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 12:50 am The syllabification is entirely regular, but:
What is the rules? Because I don't get it.

Maximal onset principle (henceforth MOP), plus the fact that short vowels must be in closed syllables. So for instance, for /jaːjargiziːŋwim/:

First syllable is /jaː/; by the MOP, the following /j/ gets assigned to the following syllable
Next syllable is /jar/; it would be /ja/, but the vowel is short so the syllable needs to be closed
Similarly, the next syllable is /giz/
Next syllable is /iː/; by the MOP, the following /ŋ/ gets assigned to the following syllable
So the final syllable must be /ŋwim/

Anyway, I don’t see why the details of syllabification are important… it just boils down to ‘syllabify normally except when you’re forced to move a consonant to the coda of the previous syllable’.

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:53 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:31 amThis might look a bit weird, but in fact English has the same rule about short vowels, and syllabifies words the same way (e.g. comma, honey are /kɒm.ə/, /hʌn.i/).

Minor nitpick, the rule actually only applies to consonants following stressed vowels, and some people have different versions of the rule, and some just don't have it at all, I believe. For example, I specifically lengthen consonants, so [ˈkɒmmə], [ˈhɐnni], [ˈbɛnnəfɪt], etc. Lengthened stops are realised with a longer stop gap.

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:10 pm**

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 6:53 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Dec 31, 2019 6:31 amThis might look a bit weird, but in fact English has the same rule about short vowels, and syllabifies words the same way (e.g. comma, honey are /kɒm.ə/, /hʌn.i/).
Minor nitpick, the rule actually only applies to consonants following stressed vowels, and some people have different versions of the rule, and some just don't have it at all, I believe. For example, I specifically lengthen consonants, so [ˈkɒmmə], [ˈhɐnni], [ˈbɛnnəfɪt], etc. Lengthened stops are realised with a longer stop gap.

Differences in syllabification are readily obvious in AmE dialects - /lojər/ 'lawyer' [loj.ər] vs. [lɔ.jər], /mirər/ 'mirror' [mɪ.rər] vs. [mir.ər], etc. In GenAm semivowels are preferentially syllabified into the coda in all cases, I think, so even /sir.ɨj.əs/ for 'serious'. (Could even write /sir.əj.əs/; the unstressed vowel contrast is neutralized before semivowels. cf. /pətejtəw/.)

However, recent loanwords complicate things a little; I've heard [bəw.rɑn] for 'bodhran', but if this word were inherited one would instead expect [bor.ɑn]. (Wiktionary claims it can also be [bæw.rɑn]...?)

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:56 pm**

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:10 pm … /lojər/ 'lawyer' [loj.ər] vs. [lɔ.jər] …

I’d be curious to know: how can these be told apart? I would imagine they sound exactly the same.

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:05 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:56 pm
Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:10 pm … /lojər/ 'lawyer' [loj.ər] vs. [lɔ.jər] …
I’d be curious to know: how can these be told apart? I would imagine they sound exactly the same.

[loj.ər] has CHOICE (rhymes with 'foyer'); [lɔ.jər] has THOUGHT, followed by a syllable with a [j] onset. The [ɔ] in [lɔ.jər] is basically the same as the [ɔ] in other THOUGHT words - it's less rounded than the onset of CHOICE, and much lower. Most people have CHOICE now, but the THOUGHT + j variant is very salient - it's much easier than, say, trying to tell whether or not someone has the cot-caught merger.

(Another distinguishing feature of AmEng dialects that's more salient than you might think is Mid-Atlantic ɔ-diphthongization, given that I've taken flack from both New Englanders and Midwesterners for [ɔ̝ən] 'on'.)

Posted: **Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:31 pm**

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 11:05 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:56 pm
Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 10:10 pm … /lojər/ 'lawyer' [loj.ər] vs. [lɔ.jər] …
I’d be curious to know: how can these be told apart? I would imagine they sound exactly the same.
[loj.ər] has CHOICE (rhymes with 'foyer'); [lɔ.jər] has THOUGHT, followed by a syllable with a [j] onset. The [ɔ] in [lɔ.jər] is basically the same as the [ɔ] in other THOUGHT words - it's less rounded than the onset of CHOICE, and much lower. Most people have CHOICE now, but the THOUGHT + j variant is very salient - it's much easier than, say, trying to tell whether or not someone has the cot-caught merger.

(Another distinguishing feature of AmEng dialects that's more salient than you might think is Mid-Atlantic ɔ-diphthongization, given that I've taken flack from both New Englanders and Midwesterners for [ɔ̝ən] 'on'.)

Thanks for explaining! I think I personally must have the first variant then (the CHOICE one).

Posted: **Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:05 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:44 pm Anyway, I don’t see why the details of syllabification are important… it just boils down to ‘syllabify normally except when you’re forced to move a consonant to the coda of the previous syllable’.

Actually, it is. I thought that the vowel is automatically lengthened in an open syllable, so I wrote it with a single letter. It turns out that the real rule is short vowel attracts a consonant into its coda.

Posted: **Thu Jan 02, 2020 8:02 pm**

/pʰ p b t̪ʰ t d tʰ t d kʰ k g/ <ph p b ch c j th t d kh k g>
/ʈ͡ʂʰ ʈ͡ʂ ɖ͡ʐ t͡ɕʰ t͡ɕ d͡ʑ t͡ɬʰ t͡ɬ/ <tsh ts dz tshy tsy dzy tlh tl>
/m n̪ n ɲ ŋ/ <m nh n ny ng>
/f s z ɕ ʐ ɬ x ɣ/ <f s z sy zh l x gh>
/w ɾ j/ <w r y>
/a e i u o/ <a e i u o>

Length is marked by doubling the first letter.

Posted: **Fri Jan 03, 2020 12:12 am**

Xwtek wrote: ↑Thu Jan 02, 2020 7:05 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 01, 2020 3:44 pm Anyway, I don’t see why the details of syllabification are important… it just boils down to ‘syllabify normally except when you’re forced to move a consonant to the coda of the previous syllable’.
Actually, it is. I thought that the vowel is automatically lengthened in an open syllable, so I wrote it with a single letter. It turns out that the real rule is short vowel attracts a consonant into its coda.

Neither is quite right — the actual rule is that a short vowel must have a consonant after it, so it can be in a closed syllable.

But anyway, yesterday I decided to scrap this rule, since I realised that I had forgotten to adhere to it in many words I’d already created. So there isn’t much point talking about this now.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:56 pm**

Gĩkũyũ /ɣekojo/ has (I think) a pretty bad orthography. Let’s see if we can design a better orthography!

Consonants:
/(p) t k/
/ᵐb ⁿd ᶮdʒ ᵑg/
/m n ɲ ŋ/
/ɾ~ɾ̥~r~ɹ~l/
/ɸ~β~f~v ð ʃ ɣ h/
/w j/

Vowels:
/i e ɛ u o ɔ a/ + length
There’s a bunch of diphthongs as well: most vowels can combine with most other vowels. There’s also one triphthong /eai/.

Tone:
There are two tones, namely high and low, as well as downstep. But the official orthography doesn’t mark tone, so it’s hard to find any samples of Gĩkũyũ text with tones. So leave tones out if you want.

Sample text (“Frog story”, from http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~reng/kik/sketch.pdf):

/neᵑgomoɣaneɾa kaɾoɣanɔ || kaɾoɣanɔ ɣaka ne ɣa kaheː | na kaɣoi | na | maðiaɣa rooi/

In the current orthography: ⟨Nĩngũmũganĩra karũgano. Karũgano gaka nĩ ga kahĩĩ, na kagui, na, mathiaga rũũĩ.⟩

Posted: **Tue Jan 14, 2020 1:32 am**

The "fixed" orthography, however, is not much different from the original orthography.

/(p) t k/ <p t k>
/ᵐb ⁿd ᶮdʒ ᵑg/<mb nd ñj ŋg>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ñ ŋ>
/ɾ~ɾ̥~r~ɹ~l/ <r>
/ɸ~β~f~v ð ʃ ɣ h/ <b d s g h>
/w j/ <w y>

/i e ɛ u o ɔ a/ (written as in IPA)

Length is marked by doubling the letter.

If the tones need to be distinguished, you can use an acute accent for high tone.

/neᵑgomoɣaneɾa kaɾoɣanɔ || kaɾoɣanɔ ɣaka ne ɣa kaheː | na kaɣoi | na | maðiaɣa rooi/
<neŋgomoganera karoganɔ. Karoganɔ gaka ne ga kahee, na kagoi, na, madiaga rooi>

Posted: **Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:23 am**

A version based on French:

/(p) t k/ <p t c~qu
/ᵐb ⁿd ᶮdʒ ᵑg/ <mb nd ndj ng~ngu>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n gn ng~ngu>
/ɾ~ɾ̥~r~ɹ~l/ <l>
/ɸ~β~f~v ð ʃ ɣ h/ <f dz ch r h>
/w j/ <ou y~ll

Vowels:
/i e ɛ u o ɔ a/ <i é e ou au o a>
/iː eː ɛː uː oː ɔː aː/ <ill ée ê oou aau ô â>

Tone unmarked.

/neᵑgomoɣaneɾa kaɾoɣanɔ || kaɾoɣanɔ ɣaka ne ɣa kaheː | na kaɣoi | na | maðiaɣa rooi/
<Néngaumauranéla calaurano. Calaurano raca né ra cahée, na carauill, na, madziara laauill.

Posted: **Tue Jan 14, 2020 11:03 am**

as generic Vengic

/(p) t k/ <p t k>
/ᵐb ⁿd ᶮdʒ ᵑg/ <bb dd jj gg>
/m n ɲ ŋ/ <m n ny ng>
/ɾ~ɾ̥~r~ɹ~l/ <l>
/ɸ~β~f~v ð ʃ ɣ h/ <f d c g h>
/w j/ <w y>

/i e ɛ u o ɔ a/ <i e x u o q a>
/V̀ V́ V̀: V́:/ <Vp V Vf Vs>

/ɲɔ̀ᵐbɛ̀ jákɛ́ hɔ́rɛ̀rì èrè ðeínè oá ɲóᵐbà || ⁿdɔ̀ːnìrɛ́ mòrèmì mòrìtò ròːʃíné/
Nyqpbbxp yakx hqlxplip eplep deinep oa nyobbap. Ddqfniplx moplepmip mopliptop lofcine.
Nyq̀bbx̀ yakx hqlx̀lì èlè deinè oa nyobbà. Ddq̃nìlx mòlèmì mòlìtò lõcine.

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:21 am**

m n̪ n~ɾ~l ɳ ɲ ŋ
b p pʰ pʼ d̪ t̪ t̪ʰ t̪ʼ d t tʰ tʼ ɖ ʈ ʈʰ ʈʼ g k kʰ kʼ
dʑ tɕ tɕʰ tɕʼ
f v s z ʂ ʐ x ɣ
w j

a e i o u + length

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:56 am**

/m n̪ n~ɾ~l ɳ ɲ ŋ/ ⟨m ṋ n ṇ ñ ŋ⟩
/b p pʰ pʼ d̪ t̪ t̪ʰ t̪ʼ d t tʰ tʼ ɖ ʈ ʈʰ ʈʼ g k kʰ kʼ/ ⟨b p ph pʼ ḓ ṱ ṱh ṱʼ d t th tʼ ḍ ṭ ṭh ṭʼ g k kh kʼ⟩
/dʑ tɕ tɕʰ tɕʼ/ ⟨j c ch cʼ⟩
/f v s z ʂ ʐ x ɣ/ ⟨f v s z š ž x h⟩
/w j/ ⟨w y⟩

/a e i o u/ ⟨a e i o u⟩
/aː eː iː oː uː/ ⟨ā ē ī ō ū⟩

(I will admit to finding the consonant inventory a bit puzzling — why are the postalveolar stops and fricatives retroflex, but the postalveolar affricates alveolo-palatal? But it was easy enough to romanize, at least.)

Posted: **Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:53 am**

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:56 am (I will admit to finding the consonant inventory a bit puzzling — why are the postalveolar stops and fricatives retroflex, but the postalveolar affricates alveolo-palatal? But it was easy enough to romanize, at least.)

Oh, that's because the affricates occupy an entirely different POA - they in fact pattern with the stops as their palatal version. Retroflex affricates do exist, but they are not phonemic and are instead allophones of sequences where any alveolar stop precedes a retroflex fricative.

I was directly inspired by Tamil in this, actually.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:21 am**

Kur europianyt aŗityn ny Ameriky, bima e domates ište pyrhapur deri ny Amerikyn Ćendrore z̧e Meksiky. Pyrdorimi i saj si ušćim fiłoi ny Meksiky, z̧e u pyrhap ny ty đişe botyn pas kolonizimit spańoł ty Amerikys. Varietete ty šumta ty saj tani kultivohen đerysišt tašmy, ngańyhery ny seŗa ny klimat e ftohta.

Domatja konsumohet ny mynüra ty ndrüšme, e freskyt, ose si ńy pyrbyrys ny šumy đeły, sałata, salca z̧e ngatyŗesy. Fruti yšty i pasur ny lycopene, će mund te kety efekte ty dobišme pyr šendetin.

Domatja yšty vendase ny zonyn e Amerikys Jugore ćendrore z̧e pjesyn jugore ty Amerikys sy Veriut, zony sot midis vendeve ty Meksikys z̧e Peruse. Azeket e ćuajten aty xitomatl, termi treguar tomat fruta ty ndrüšme ty nđašme me ńyra-tjetryn, zakoništ lyng. Salca e domateve u by ńy pjesy integrale e kužine Azteke. Disa şone se ište ńy domate pyrforcuese, kjo do ty jety arsüeja pse frynđišt ńy hery e pyrškroi aty si pomme d'amour, mołe e dašurisy. Yšty şyny se pas futjes se saj ny Evropy züra e Sir Walter Raleigh kište z̧ene pjeset e kytij plani pyr ty realizuar ny Hernán Cortés u kşüe ny štypi z̧e e čuan mostrave, por kultivimin z̧e špyrndarjen e saj ka pritur deri đüsmyn e düty ty šekułit ty štatymbyz̧jety.

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2020 1:41 pm**

げぃこぅよぅ /ɣekojo/

Consonants: (with the vowel /a/)
/(p) t k/ ＜ぱ　た　か＞
/ᵐb ⁿd ᶮdʒ ᵑg/ ＜んば　んだ　んじゃ　んが＞
/m n ɲ ŋ/ ＜ま　な　にゃ　んな＞
/ɾ~ɾ̥~r~ɹ~l/ ＜ら＞
/ɸ~β~f~v ð ʃ ɣ h/ ＜ば　だ　しゃ　が　は＞
/w j/ ＜わ・うぁ　や＞

Vowels:
/i e ɛ u o ɔ a/ +length ＜い　えぃ　え　う　おぅ　お　あ＞＜いい　ええぃ　ええ　うう　おおぅ　おお　ああ＞

Sample text

/neᵑgomoɣaneɾa kaɾoɣanɔ || kaɾoɣanɔ ɣaka ne ɣa kaheː | na kaɣoi | na | maðiaɣa rooi/

＜ねぃんごぅもぅがねぃらかろぅがのぅ。かろぅがのぅがかねぃがかへえぃ、なかごぅい、な、まぢあがろおぅい＞

Posted: **Thu Jan 16, 2020 2:19 pm**

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:21 am Kur europianyt aŗityn ny Ameriky, bima e domates ište pyrhapur deri ny Amerikyn Ćendrore z̧e Meksiky. Pyrdorimi i saj si ušćim fiłoi ny Meksiky, z̧e u pyrhap ny ty đişe botyn pas kolonizimit spańoł ty Amerikys. Varietete ty šumta ty saj tani kultivohen đerysišt tašmy, ngańyhery ny seŗa ny klimat e ftohta.

Domatja konsumohet ny mynüra ty ndrüšme, e freskyt, ose si ńy pyrbyrys ny šumy đeły, sałata, salca z̧e ngatyŗesy. Fruti yšty i pasur ny lycopene, će mund te kety efekte ty dobišme pyr šendetin.

Domatja yšty vendase ny zonyn e Amerikys Jugore ćendrore z̧e pjesyn jugore ty Amerikys sy Veriut, zony sot midis vendeve ty Meksikys z̧e Peruse. Azeket e ćuajten aty xitomatl, termi treguar tomat fruta ty ndrüšme ty nđašme me ńyra-tjetryn, zakoništ lyng. Salca e domateve u by ńy pjesy integrale e kužine Azteke. Disa şone se ište ńy domate pyrforcuese, kjo do ty jety arsüeja pse frynđišt ńy hery e pyrškroi aty si pomme d'amour, mołe e dašurisy. Yšty şyny se pas futjes se saj ny Evropy züra e Sir Walter Raleigh kište z̧ene pjeset e kytij plani pyr ty realizuar ny Hernán Cortés u kşüe ny štypi z̧e e čuan mostrave, por kultivimin z̧e špyrndarjen e saj ka pritur deri đüsmyn e düty ty šekułit ty štatymbyz̧jety.

Are you entirely sure you posted this in the right thread? And what language is this anyway? I would say Latvian, but Latvian doesn’t use ⟨đ⟩ or ⟨ü⟩…

Zompist Bboard Again

Romanization Challenge Thread v2.0

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