Zompist Bboard Again

Is anyone actually maintaining the Index Diachronica?

dhok wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 9:38 amIs anyone actually maintaining the Index Diachronica?

Pogostick Man / Linguifex told me the following in August last year, after I mentioned this:

chri d. d. has been gracious enough to make a working searchable version, so I'd have to send him any further drafts before I do anything else.

It isn't that I don't want to take care of it anymore, it's more that real life—particularly work and health issues—have gotten in the way. I've been meaning to add to it for quite some time but just haven't had the time or energy.

The answer is basically no, no one is really maintaining it. That said, some people online have made things with it. That website that generates conlangs programmatically if you pay ("Vulgar: fantasy language generator") uses it as one of its various components.

probably wouldn't be too hard to set it up as a web app under distributed version control + on github or sth. would need to design a format and convert the existing data but this is manageable

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Mon Jan 25, 2021 4:05 pmafter I mentioned this

Hrmmm, now that I'm older and wiser, I see a number of problems with the Latin > Romance sections... It'd be interesting to work out improved versions of them with some romling nerds I know...

Incidentally, Pogostick Man, if you're reading this:

Pogostick Man wrote:From Latin to Old Provençal, Pogostick Man

NB: Use at your own peril. Trying to put a chronology to this is sort of like what I imagine undergoing a root canal would be like, as is figuring out the conditioning on a lot of these things because of the convention Grandgent uses. Nevertheless, I have tried—and probably largely failed.

I have in fact undergone a root canal procedure. My adult left-side canine killed one of my adult incisives when coming down, at age 12 or so, by destroying the nerve and the end of the tooth's root. It was just very bad luck. And it was not at all painful —they sedated me quite well, with local anesthesia, and it went smoothly.

Richard W, or anyone who might know, what is the Thai word for "hand fan"? I just wanted to add it to this Wiktionary entry.

Kuchigakatai wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 3:37 pm Richard W, or anyone who might know, what is the Thai word for "hand fan"? I just wanted to add it to this Wiktionary entry.

พัด

I think it may be the rigid type by default.

chri d. d. does appear to upkeep the site, if the last-modified dates are anything to go by.

I really should pick up the Index again. It’s been five years and there’s so much I need to fix with it and want to add.

SquiDark on Reddit undertook a fantastic enterprise: To find all the mistakes and correct them. You can find that here.

It’s gratifying seeing the Index actually show up in citations.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 5:41 pm SquiDark on Reddit undertook a fantastic enterprise: To find all the mistakes and correct them. You can find that here.

Wow, that’s amazing; thanks for showing us this!

It’s gratifying seeing the Index actually show up in citations.

I’m honestly quite surprised to hear this — where has it been cited?

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:03 pm

It’s gratifying seeing the Index actually show up in citations.

I’m honestly quite surprised to hear this — where has it been cited?

Here’s one (and here’s the associated project). Here’s another, but I cannot read Swedish.

Ooh, citations!

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:46 pmHere’s another, but I cannot read Swedish.

That's one odd book. It doesn't seem to be about linguistics at all, but about writing advise. I can't make sense of it, it has so many different topics.

Qwynegold wrote: ↑Wed Jan 27, 2021 2:01 am Ooh, citations!

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jan 26, 2021 6:46 pmHere’s another, but I cannot read Swedish.

That's one odd book. It doesn't seem to be about linguistics at all, but about writing advise. I can't make sense of it, it has so many different topics.

I was about to ask if you spoke Swedish fluently, but then I noticed your location. My guess is that you probably do.

Yeah, I've lived here since I was 6.

I was confused when my boss pronounced TortoiseGit as [ˌtɔɹtɔɪsˈɡɪt] rather than [ˌtʰɔʁ(ɾ)ɘsˈkɘʔ] today.

I would probably say it roughly [tɔɹdɨs g̊ɪʔ(t̚)]; would this also be confusing?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:24 pm I would probably say it roughly [tɔɹdɨs g̊ɪʔ(t̚)]; would this also be confusing?

Are you sure you don't aspirate the first /t/ and flap the second /t/?

What confused me was the lack of aspiration of the first /t/, the realization of the second /t/ as a voiceless stop, and the pronouncing of the second vowel in tortoise as a diphthong rather than as a weak vowel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magahi_language possibly the most poorly described language on all of Wikipedia that has >20 million speakers

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:03 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:24 pm I would probably say it roughly [tɔɹdɨs g̊ɪʔ(t̚)]; would this also be confusing?

Are you sure you don't aspirate the first /t/ and flap the second /t/?

Oops, yes, I do aspirate the first one. I don't know that I flap the second one — tortoise and taurus are certainly distinct, so I at least perceive it (psychologically) as /d/.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:44 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 7:03 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:24 pm I would probably say it roughly [tɔɹdɨs g̊ɪʔ(t̚)]; would this also be confusing?

Are you sure you don't aspirate the first /t/ and flap the second /t/?

Oops, yes, I do aspirate the first one. I don't know that I flap the second one — tortoise and taurus are certainly distinct, so I at least perceive it (psychologically) as /d/.

I hear the two as being distinct, ignoring vowel length, when I don't drop the flap, because [ʁɾ] is quite audibly distinct from [ʁ] for me - and when I do drop the flap the two are still distinct thanks to vowel length (the first syllable of tortoise takes a short vowel even with flap elision while the the first syllable of taurus takes a long vowel for me).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:09 pm I hear the two as being distinct, ignoring vowel length, when I don't drop the flap, because [ʁɾ] is quite audibly distinct from [ʁ] for me - and when I do drop the flap the two are still distinct thanks to vowel length (the first syllable of tortoise takes a short vowel even with flap elision while the the first syllable of taurus takes a long vowel for me).

I'm pretty sure my /d/ is still some sort of tap, though intervocalic /d t/ neutralisation is quite prevalent ("kitty" and "kiddie" are homophones), also usually happening medially after /r/ ("sorted" and "sordid" are also homophones); my /r/ also isn't [ʁ] — I think it's more like a slightly apical [ɹ]-like thing. Rather than speculating, have an audio sample:

"turtle"
"hurdle"
"tortoise"
"taurus"
"taught us"
"otter"
"odder"
"subtle"
"puddle"
"letter"
"led her"
"lavender"
"Levanter" (wind)
"aquifer"
"avatar"
"anotate"
"anodyne"

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 9:03 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:09 pm I hear the two as being distinct, ignoring vowel length, when I don't drop the flap, because [ʁɾ] is quite audibly distinct from [ʁ] for me - and when I do drop the flap the two are still distinct thanks to vowel length (the first syllable of tortoise takes a short vowel even with flap elision while the the first syllable of taurus takes a long vowel for me).

I'm pretty sure my /d/ is still some sort of tap, though intervocalic /d t/ neutralisation is quite prevalent ("kitty" and "kiddie" are homophones), also usually happening medially after /r/ ("sorted" and "sordid" are also homophones); my /r/ also isn't [ʁ] — I think it's more like a slightly apical [ɹ]-like thing. Rather than speculating, have an audio sample:

[snip]

You don't seem to have much of a noticeable vowel length distinction in these pairs, resulting in actual /t d/ neutralization.