Yes, yes it is.Jonlang wrote: ↑Fri Oct 20, 2023 10:04 am I've had an idea for evolving a feature in one of my conlangs, which usually means I come here to ask if it's logical or naturalistic, I get told "no" and I cry; but here goes:
1. the gerundive could be used like a future participle in a compound with the preterite of 'to be' to mean 'was going to...', and
2. that the gerundive evolve further to become a future tense marker on verbs?
I would say that the correspondence is overwhelmingly one of form.
Indeed for some languages (well, at least in oldish Indic, for the suffixes that are -tavya or -ya in Sanskrit), one may find the same form being called a gerundive by some and a future passive participle by others. The longer suffix has no formal connection with the future or passive stems.
Code: Select all
fam pol
pst-pos - -
pst-neg III II&III
prs-pos - -
prs-neg III II&III
hort III II&III
imp - II&III
nomz -Maybe you can help me come up with a better term for what I'm calling "experiential voice". (I figured that specifying it as a voice makes it clear that it's different from the experiential aspect, but there still might be a clearer term.)bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Oct 18, 2023 8:52 pmThis terminology is confusing. I usually see ‘experiential’ used for a verbal form related to the perfect, which implies the speaker has done an action before. (The standard example being Chinese 過 -guò, often translated as ‘ever’.) This kind of experiential, by the way, is also a perfectly good intermediate step in the development of a passive.
šev "be visible", "be seen" → šuhev "see"It's often quite similar to a passive or an applicative passive, but it contrasts a bit with roots that are inherently passive and are "depassivised" by the causative or antipassive infix -uw-.
teš "be familiar", "be known" → tuheš "know"
mazeg "be clear/understandable/comprehensible" → muhazeg "understand"
daž "be dangerous", "be a danger" → duhaž "be in danger"
ŋam "be loved" (sexually, romantically) → ŋuham "love"
sumux "be a shark" → suhumux "get sharked""be attacked by a shark"
tšeg "be a spider" → tšuheg "get spidered", i.e. "get bitten by a spider", "get startled by a spider", "see a spider"
valus "be a friend" → vuhalus "have a friend"
tlev "be a name" → tluhev "be named"
muf "be a tear/tears" → muhuf "weep"
qalum "be rain" → quhalum "get rained on"
tem "be eaten", "be consumed" → tuwem "eat, consume"Frequently, both derivations can be used and can sometimes be used together:
ŋem "be crushed" → ŋuwem "crush"
feŋ "be stolen" → fuweŋ "steal", "be a thief"
feŋ "be stolenI was calling -uh- a passive for a while, noting that with words for sensory states like "be visible", it is the reverse of English, which encodes experiencers as the subjects of the base words and the stimulus as the object. Recently though, I came across a concept where this -uh- couldn't be applied because passiveness wasn't associated with experiencing something, but I can't remember what it was.
→ fuweŋ "steal", "be a thief"
→ fuheŋ "have something stolen" (e.g. have one's car stolen, meaning "experience one's car being stolen" rather than "arrange for sb. else to steal one's car", which could be fuwuweŋ, but would more likely be expressed in a multiclausal construction)
šev "be visible", "be seen"
→ šuhev "see"
→ šuwev "show" (sth.), "reveal", "point out" ("make be seen")
→ šuwuhev "show" (sb.), figuratively "open sb.'s eyes" ("make see")
kal "burn" (intr.), "be on fire"
→ kuwal "set on fire", "light a fire", "torch sth."
→ kuhal "experience a fire" (e.g. have one's home or possessions burn down)
→ kuhuwal "experience a fire caused by someone" (e.g. have one's home or possessions burnt down/torched, experience an act of arson)
haž "be open" (of a door etc.); "be vulnerable", "be exposed", "be unprotected"
→ huwaž "open" (a door, etc.); "leave sb. vulnerable/exposed/unprotected"
→ huhaž "find (a door etc.) open", "be unimpeded", "be unhindered"; "find sb. vulnerable/unprotected"
ŋeb "be uttered", "be a message", "be an utterance", "be said", "be told" (e.g. a story)
→ ŋuweb "say", "utter", "tell", "be a messenger"
→ ŋuheb "be told" (a person), "receive a message"
nyag "use one's neck", "turn one's head"
→ nyuwag "be stunning", "be gorgeous", "be a head-turner"
→ nyuhuwag "see someone stunning and turn one's head"
→ nyuhag "be aware of heads turning while passing"
mil "hide" (intr.)
→ muwil "hide sth./sb."
→ muhil "be hidden from"
ŋaf "flee", "run away", "avoid"
→ ŋuwaf "chase away", "shoo"
→ ŋuhaf "be fled from"
loš "wash" (intr.), "bathe", "shower"
→ luwoš "wash sb./sth."
→ luhuwoš "be washed by sb. else"
Of course it's all subjective, but for what it's worth, I don't find lumbāwa clunky at all and find it quite beautiful.
Ah, I was thinking is option 4 really how analogy would work? Now I'm thinking maybe I'll do option 4 for class II verbs because they only use stem 2 in the polite register, and for class III verbs I'll lose stem 1. Hmm, though I'm not sure if that would be plausible.
Nice, filled in. The region selection is questionable :).bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:41 am A prominent conlanger on YouTube is running a conlanger survey. I’ve been through it and some of the questions seem a bit odd to me, but I’ve long thought such a census is a good idea, so let me link it here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... w/viewform
Indeed… I get very annoyed at people who think the US is the centre of the world!jal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:44 amNice, filled in. The region selection is questionablebradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:41 am A prominent conlanger on YouTube is running a conlanger survey. I’ve been through it and some of the questions seem a bit odd to me, but I’ve long thought such a census is a good idea, so let me link it here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... w/viewform.
One could say the same thing about the East and West Coasts of the US.bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:46 amIndeed… I get very annoyed at people who think the US is the centre of the world!jal wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 7:44 amNice, filled in. The region selection is questionablebradrn wrote: ↑Fri Nov 10, 2023 4:41 am A prominent conlanger on YouTube is running a conlanger survey. I’ve been through it and some of the questions seem a bit odd to me, but I’ve long thought such a census is a good idea, so let me link it here: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIp ... w/viewform
Welcome to the board! Let me reformat this as a table for easier viewing:AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 4:46 pm Hi, I'm new to the site (and conlanging, as my name makes clear) and I'm not very good at anything yet. Dunno how to introduce my language, Sodemeresh, so I may as well begin with the conjugations (because I love my conjugations).
To Grow- Irovase
I Grow- Irovasu
You S. Grow- Irovases
You P. Grow- Irovasal
He/She/They Grow(s)- Irovasem
They P. Grow- Irovasi
It (Inanimate) Grows- Irovasil
They (Inanimate) Grow- Irovasole
We Grow- Irovasent
| Person | SG | PL |
| 1 | irovasu | irovasent |
| 2 | irovases | irovasal |
| 3 (animate) | irovasem | irovasem / irovasi |
| 3 (inanimate) | irovasil | irovasole |
Sorry, my second question was unclear. You gloss irovase as English ‘to grow’, which is an infinitive… but many other languages don’t really have a verb form like that.AwfullyAmateur wrote: ↑Mon Nov 20, 2023 8:01 pm Irovasem is used for they singular (animate). Irovasi is they plural (animate). Also, irovase is a typical Sodemeresh verb. Seemed best not to introduce me and my language with irregular verbs.
Also… be careful here! English happens to conflate these two meanings into one verb grow, but other languages may not. (For instance, I gather that French uses pousser for plants and grandir for people.) Of course, it’s still fine to use one verb in your language, but make sure you’re aware of it and that you’re conflating those meanings deliberately, rather than doing so merely because English does it.If you're asking what kind of growing, specifically, it's basically growing like a plant grows, or a person grows up.
"be attacked by a shark"
.