Zompist Bboard Again

Richard W wrote: ↑Mon Dec 12, 2022 5:37 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:22 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:31 am I hold it to be patently obvious that the people in charge worship The Dark One, and I challenge anyone to come up with a better explanation for the status quo.

They still haven't managed to get Cthulhu as a candidate in any US presidential races - and get enough people to vote for him - or convince enough people to cast write-in votes for him. But maybe that would be too obvious for them. I do suspect that Cthulhu would likely win were he the Republican candidate for US president.

What hurdle does he fail? There were explicit campaigns for him at the last two elections.

Can't have failed the "must be born on US territory" because that includes areas which achieved statehood after the canidate's birth...and the US has a large % of the Pacific under its belt.

Maybe failed at the paperwork hurdle - so many ways to misspell the name, after all.

Might be non-human status is disqualifying?

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:48 pm Might be non-human status is disqualifying?

No, but non-citizen status is.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:27 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:48 pmMight be non-human status is disqualifying?

No, but non-citizen status is.

I thought citizenship was automatic for anyone either born in a US state or territory, or born in what would become a US state or territory.

I mean, that applies equally well to "the space which became Earth" as "island in Pacific ocean."

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:54 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:27 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:48 pmMight be non-human status is disqualifying?

No, but non-citizen status is.

I thought citizenship was automatic for anyone either born in a US state or territory, or born in what would become a US state or territory.

I mean, that applies equally well to "the space which became Earth" as "island in Pacific ocean."

I'm not sure-- parts of the US were once foreign territory. Was someone a citizen if, say, they were born in Utah in 1830 (when it was Mexican) and left before the US took it over in 1848? I'm no lawyer, but I'd think: probably. So Cthulhu is safe if he (it?) was born in any present US territory.

However, various sources say Cthulhu was born on the planet Vhoorl, which is not US territory. Yet?

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:27 am

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:54 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:27 pmNo, but non-citizen status is.

I thought citizenship was automatic for anyone either born in a US state or territory, or born in what would become a US state or territory.

I mean, that applies equally well to "the space which became Earth" as "island in Pacific ocean."

I'm not sure-- parts of the US were once foreign territory. Was someone a citizen if, say, they were born in Utah in 1830 (when it was Mexican) and left before the US took it over in 1848?

Left? Hm, that throws a wrinkle in the matter, or at least adds another question or two.

I'm no lawyer, but I'd think: probably. So Cthulhu is safe if he (it?) was born in any present US territory.

The examples I usually hear involve either the Presidents who were born before the US existed, and thus were born into foreign nations, or how Obama was born in Hawaii before its statehood.

...and also a hypothetical saying that, had the Japanese conquered Hawaii during WW2, and the US retook Hawaii, anyone born in Hawaii before or during the Japanese ownership, could still be US President.


Though, Chthulhu is supposedly locked away under the underwater city of Ry'leh, right? Even if we assume Ry'leh is inside the bounds that the US claims to some of its Pacific possessions...is there a limit as to how deep underground territorial possession goes?

i apologize for taking this discussion too far afield.

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:37 am Though, Chthulhu is supposedly locked away under the underwater city of Ry'leh, right? Even if we assume Ry'leh is inside the bounds that the US claims to some of its Pacific possessions...is there a limit as to how deep underground territorial possession goes?

Apparently not: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuius_est ... ad_inferos

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 6:01 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 1:27 pm Unrelated, a question for doctor shark: does your current avatar mean anything in particular? It sure looks neat.

Looks like one of his liquid crystal experiments to me, seen under a microscope (cf. viewtopic.php?p=62932#p62932).

[insert bell noises indicating a correct response] Indeed, these are different kinds of LC droplets made from different LC materials.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:54 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 11:27 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Dec 16, 2022 10:48 pmMight be non-human status is disqualifying?

No, but non-citizen status is.

I thought citizenship was automatic for anyone either born in a US state or territory, or born in what would become a US state or territory.

I mean, that applies equally well to "the space which became Earth" as "island in Pacific ocean."

Fun fact: this isn't the case for territories, just for the states (and DC). People born in American Samoa are not, by default, US citizens (but US nationals). In the case of Puerto Rico, this was granted by the Jones-Shafroth Act in 1917, and separate acts apply for each of the other territories.

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:37 am The examples I usually hear involve either the Presidents who were born before the US existed, and thus were born into foreign nations, or how Obama was born in Hawaii before its statehood.

There have been cases also where, for example, John McCain was not born within the territory of the US, and yet was still eligible to run for president (or didn't have that challenged, at least). The big thing is that, at the time of independence, British nationality law, as complex as it is, differentiated between natural-born subjects, those who were born with allegiance to the crown, and naturalized subjects, who acquired the status later (as well as other statuses), and a lot of British law was semi-automatically transposed to US law. In even crazier cases, there's Ted Cruz, who was born in Canada, but with US citizenship from birth due to his US citizen mother.

While Cthulhu, however, transcends the concepts of nationality and more invites an "inverse" nationality where all pledge allegiance to Cthulhu, where exactly Ry'leh is located would maybe have a bearing on that status. And we distinguish based on territorial waters, for example, when planes fly overhead (and kids that pop out on flights over Canada and the US automatically get the respective country's nationality).

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:37 am The examples I usually hear involve either the Presidents who were born before the US existed, and thus were born into foreign nations, or how Obama was born in Hawaii before its statehood.

This isn't the case— Obama was born in 1961; Hawaii became a state in 1959.

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Dec 17, 2022 1:37 am

I'm no lawyer, but I'd think: probably. So Cthulhu is safe if he (it?) was born in any present US territory.

The examples I usually hear involve either the Presidents who were born before the US existed, and thus were born into foreign nations,

That case is pretty simple: the relevant clause of the US Constitution explicitly says

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;

[emphasis mine]

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:51 am That case is pretty simple: the relevant clause of the US Constitution explicitly says

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;

Nothing in law is simple... the Wikipedia article on this clause is pretty interesting. In brief: "natural born Citizen" is not defined in law and can be interpreted several ways. The easy bit is that anyone born in a US state to US parents is a natural born citizen. There have been candidates for the presidency with non-US parents (quite a few, including Obama... and Trump), born in foreign countries (Ted Cruz), born in US territories that are not states (John McCain), born in US territories that were not states at the time of their birth but became states later (Barry Goldwater), or born in the District of Columbia (Al Gore). The Supreme Court has never ruled on what "natural born citizen" means, but some of these people have been challenged in court, and none of those challenges succeeded.

What's quite clear is that citizenship may be granted by birth, but not simply by residency. Even if Cthulhu was resident in US territory (at the time the US acquired it, and assuming it did not cease to be a territory like the Philippines or the Marianas), the question is where he was born. His candidacy cannot simply hide the location of R'lyeh, nor sidestep the question of his possible birth on Vhoorl.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:27 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 12:51 am That case is pretty simple: the relevant clause of the US Constitution explicitly says

No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President;

Nothing in law is simple... the Wikipedia article on this clause is pretty interesting. In brief: "natural born Citizen" is not defined in law and can be interpreted several ways.

I was responding specifically to keenir bringing up "the Presidents who were born before the US existed, and thus were born into foreign nations". I know that the clause as a whole is a bit more complicated.

tl;dr: The sticking point is that "natural born citizen" and "citizen naturalized at birth" are legally distinct phrases. The general concensus is that they refer to the same thing, but this has never been codified in law or addressed by the Supreme Court. Since John McCain was allowed to run for President with no serious legal pushback, we can conclude that if confronted directly by this discrepancy, we would just proceed as if general consensus was contitutional law, like we're a bunch of filthy Brits (spits into gutter). The proper American solution would be to spell it out clearly, engrave it into the constitution so it can never feasibly be changed, and word it in such a way that it accidentaly sabotages government five or six generations in the future.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 2:27 am What's quite clear is that citizenship may be granted by birth, but not simply by residency. Even if Cthulhu was resident in US territory (at the time the US acquired it, and assuming it did not cease to be a territory like the Philippines or the Marianas), the question is where he was born. His candidacy cannot simply hide the location of R'lyeh, nor sidestep the question of his possible birth on Vhoorl.

Too bad. Dread Cthulhu would actually be an improvement over most activie politicians.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 3:35 am
Too bad. Dread Cthulhu would actually be an improvement over most activie politicians.

As the bumper sticker said, why vote for the lesser evil?

Has there ever been a case that a write-in candidate has won on a state or national level?

Yes, Lisa Murkowski won a US Senate seat for Alaska in 2010 on a write-in campaign, after she lost the Republican primary. In 1964, Strom Thurmond won a South Carolina US Senate seat on a write-in campaign as well.

People who usually get at least a few write-in votes in elections in the USA seem to include Jesus Christ and Your Mom. Now, outside of Mormon scriptures, Jesus Christ has never been anywhere near North America; and whether Your Mom is eligible depends, of course, on who is meant by "You".

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:13 pm Yes, Lisa Murkowski won a US Senate seat for Alaska in 2010 on a write-in campaign, after she lost the Republican primary. In 1964, Strom Thurmond won a South Carolina US Senate seat on a write-in campaign as well.

Thurmond won as a write-in in 1954, not 64. The issue was that the candidate died just before the election, and Thurmond's write-in campaign was a sort of protest against the lack of a primary to select the incumbent's replacement.

The common thread here is that these successful write-ins are already known entities. Thurmond had been governor and a senate candidate already, and Murkowski was already the incumbent.

alynnidalar wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 12:13 pm Yes, Lisa Murkowski won a US Senate seat for Alaska in 2010 on a write-in campaign, after she lost the Republican primary. In 1964, Strom Thurmond won a South Carolina US Senate seat on a write-in campaign as well.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Dec 21, 2022 3:31 am Thurmond won as a write-in in 1954, not 64. The issue was that the candidate died just before the election, and Thurmond's write-in campaign was a sort of protest against the lack of a primary to select the incumbent's replacement.

The common thread here is that these successful write-ins are already known entities. Thurmond had been governor and a senate candidate already, and Murkowski was already the incumbent.

Thanks!