Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:57 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 11:05 pm *ts > *ɬ

[ɬɑ'ⁿʒo:]
tsanjô
"our language"

See this is what I mean by evil sound changes.

I’ve actually seen evidence of a dialect of a language (I can’t recall exactly but ISTR it was Sinitic) that had *s > ɬ as a result of a push chain; since we’re only seeing one element of the shift, I’d say it’s reasonable.

There is also the ts-to-lateral-via-theta conceit.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 6:20 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:57 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 11:05 pm *ts > *ɬ

[ɬɑ'ⁿʒo:]
tsanjô
"our language"

See this is what I mean by evil sound changes.

I’ve actually seen evidence of a dialect of a language (I can’t recall exactly but ISTR it was Sinitic) that had *s > ɬ as a result of a push chain; since we’re only seeing one element of the shift, I’d say it’s reasonable.

There is also the ts-to-lateral-via-theta conceit.

I am more familiar with *ɬ > sibilants myself; e.g. this happened more than once in Semitic.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun May 12, 2024 4:57 pm

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Sat May 11, 2024 11:05 pm *ts > *ɬ

[ɬɑ'ⁿʒo:]
tsanjô
"our language"

See this is what I mean by evil sound changes.

I think I'd more call it implausible, as presented, though I'm not personally fond of lateral fricatives.

Unmotivated /s/ → /ɬ/ is attested multiple times, although areally not that widespread; Yue Chinese, some Central Tai languages, Hlai, Tanoan apparently. In SE Asia /s/ isn't as stable as it ought to be, it keeps turning into /t/ or /ɬ/ or some bullshit along those lines.

edit: MiS's push chain would be Yue Chinese -

*t tʰ → ʔ h
*ts tsʰ s → t tʰ ɬ
*tɕ tɕʰ tɕ → ts tsʰ s

Darren wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 6:38 am Unmotivated /s/ → /ɬ/ is attested multiple times, although areally not that widespread; Yue Chinese, some Central Tai languages, Hlai, Tanoan apparently. In SE Asia /s/ isn't as stable as it ought to be, it keeps turning into /t/ or /ɬ/ or some bullshit along those lines.

edit: MiS's push chain would be Yue Chinese -

*t tʰ → ʔ h
*ts tsʰ s → t tʰ ɬ
*tɕ tɕʰ tɕ → ts tsʰ s

That tracks. Many thanks!

Just because a sound change is attested does not mean that it is not evil!

I was always thinking we were meant to stay within the bounds of what could happen in a single shift or chain shift (i.e. disaffrication, replicating Grimm's Law or the Great Vowel Shift), where [ts] > [ɬ] feels like it's compounding two things, both lateralisation ([ts] > [tɬ]) and then disaffrication ([tɬ] > [ɬ]), which probably ought to be separate posts in the game. As long as a sound change is attested and it feels plausible in context, though, I think it ought to be fine, and there isn't cause to call it "evil" (though it might be ugly).

Anyway, to get us back on track:

[ì.t͡sɨ́ᵝ.ɰᵝá.ɾʲì]
偽り | いつわり | itsuwari
"lie, falsehood"

Initial high vowels devoice before voiceless consonants

[i̥.t͡sɨ́ᵝ.ɰᵝá.ɾʲì]
偽り | いつわり | itsuwari
"lie, falsehood"

Lateralisation

[i̥.ɬɨ́ᵝ.ɰᵝá.ɺʲì]
偽り | いつわり | ihluwali
"lie, falsehood"

ɬ > ç

[i̥.çɨ́ᵝ.ɰᵝá.ɺʲì]
偽り | いつわり | ihluwali
"lie, falsehood"

Loss of voiceless vowels:

[çɨ́ᵝ.ɰᵝá.ɺʲì]
偽り | つわり | hyiwari
"lie, falsehood"

Fronting of central vowels after palatals

[çíᵝ.ɰᵝá.ɺʲì]
偽り | つわり | hyiwari
"lie, falsehood; (criminal slang) alibi, especially if dubious"

[a] > [oᵝ] after [ɰᵝ]

[çíᵝ.ɰᵝóᵝ.ɺʲì]
偽り | つわり | hyiwari
"lie, falsehood; (criminal slang) alibi, especially if dubious"

People get sick of not having normal rounded vowels and semivowels.

[çý.wó.ɺʲì]
偽り | つわり | hyiwari
"lie, falsehood; (criminal slang) alibi, especially if dubious"

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 10:13 am People get sick of not having normal rounded vowels and semivowels.

I don't think people are so cognizant of sound changes when they happen, or trigger them intentionally.

i-mutation

[çý.wǿ.ɺʲì]
偽り | つわり | hyuweori
"lie, falsehood; (criminal slang) alibi, especially if dubious"

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 2:05 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 10:13 am People get sick of not having normal rounded vowels and semivowels.

I don't think people are so cognizant of sound changes when they happen, or trigger them intentionally.

Methinks Travis was merely phrasing it in an amusing manner.

Final low-pitch vowels delete

[çý.wǿɺʲ]
偽り | つわり | hyuweori
"perjury; alibi, especially if dubious"

Pitch becomes low before heavy high-pitched syllables:

[çỳ.wǿɺʲ]
偽り | つわり | hyuweolh
"perjury; alibi, especially if dubious"

Schwa epenthesis after final consonants. (Note that the schwa takes the tone of the preceding vowel.)

[çỳ.wǿɺʲə́]
偽り | つわり | hyuweolh
"perjury; alibi, especially if dubious"

Schwa merges with [ø].

[çỳ.wǿɺʲǿ]
偽り | つわり | hyuweolyeo
"perjury; alibi, especially if dubious"

Loss of first in a sequence of two like vowels

[çỳw.ɺʲǿ]
偽り | つわり | hyuweolyeo
"perjury; alibi, especially if dubious"