Zompist Bboard Again

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:03 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:15 pm Has anyone else been under the impression that what is written in Rōmaji as ⟨ei⟩, e.g. in sensei, corresponded to /ei/ rather than to /eː/?

I have no idea what vowel "/eː/" is supposed to be.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:15 pm Has anyone else been under the impression that what is written in Rōmaji as ⟨ei⟩, e.g. in sensei, corresponded to /ei/ rather than to /eː/? When I studied Japanese back in school (which I have forgotten much of, and I was never good at it) I would pronounce sensei as [sɜ̃ntsej] (a complete butchering to be sure, note that I used a lower and more centralized vowel before /ɴ/). The curious part is that I distinguished an /e/ (as [e]) and an /ei/ (as [ej]), which obviously is a spelling pronunciation based on not being properly taught Japanese phonology, but which is also curious because English dialects do not normally distinguish [e] and [ej] unless they correspond to GA /ɛ/ and /eɪ/ (but my /ɛ/ is [ɜ] not [e]).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:15 pm Has anyone else been under the impression that what is written in Rōmaji as ⟨ei⟩, e.g. in sensei, corresponded to /ei/ rather than to /eː/? When I studied Japanese back in school (which I have forgotten much of, and I was never good at it) I would pronounce sensei as [sɜ̃ntsej] (a complete butchering to be sure, note that I used a lower and more centralized vowel before /ɴ/). The curious part is that I distinguished an /e/ (as [e]) and an /ei/ (as [ej]), which obviously is a spelling pronunciation based on not being properly taught Japanese phonology, but which is also curious because English dialects do not normally distinguish [e] and [ej] unless they correspond to GA /ɛ/ and /eɪ/ (but my /ɛ/ is [ɜ] not [e]).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:15 pm Has anyone else been under the impression that what is written in Rōmaji as ⟨ei⟩, e.g. in sensei, corresponded to /ei/ rather than to /eː/?

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:23 pm

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:03 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 5:15 pm Has anyone else been under the impression that what is written in Rōmaji as ⟨ei⟩, e.g. in sensei, corresponded to /ei/ rather than to /eː/?

I have no idea what vowel "/eː/" is supposed to be.

?

Japanese has a five vowel system /i u e o a/ plus vowel length. So /eː/ is the long counterpart of /e/.

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:19 am

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:23 pm

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 9:03 pm

I have no idea what vowel "/eː/" is supposed to be.

?

Japanese has a five vowel system /i u e o a/ plus vowel length. So /eː/ is the long counterpart of /e/.

Oh, it's meant to be a Japanese vowel? I thought Travis was talking about English pronunciations.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:38 amI meant the pronunciation of a Japanese vowel by a native English-speaker, i.e. myself.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:17 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:38 amI meant the pronunciation of a Japanese vowel by a native English-speaker, i.e. myself.

Then colour me as confused as Kath. I don’t contrast /e:/ and /ei/ in English; I use the same diphthong for both.

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sun Jan 31, 2021 2:32 pm Maybe you should mention when you're talking about your own pronunciations? I recall nobody else here shares your particular idiolect, which makes questions about your own vowels rather hard to answer...

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:41 am

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:19 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Jan 29, 2021 11:41 pm My /r/ is kinda weird - it is a uvular approximant, except if it follows a coronal where then it is a coarticulated retroflex-uvular approximant, and if it is word-initial it is also labialized - except if it is syllabic, where then it is always just a uvular approximant without labialization, even when initial. And yes, l-vocalization makes transcriptions look far weirder than they really are.

I'm really curious to hear how this manifests as I can't really imagine it - would you be up for posting a recording of your speech with a transcription?

I tried taking a recording yesterday, but the microphone on my machine was acting wonky, so I couldn't.

The thing is that audibly it isn't much different from your standard NAE alveolar or retroflex approximant with initial labialization, aside from that when I attempt to pronounce a plain alveolar or retroflex approximant I can't help but make it slightly lateral...

anteallach wrote: ↑Mon Feb 01, 2021 2:29 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 10:41 am

quinterbeck wrote: ↑Sat Jan 30, 2021 7:19 am

I'm really curious to hear how this manifests as I can't really imagine it - would you be up for posting a recording of your speech with a transcription?

I tried taking a recording yesterday, but the microphone on my machine was acting wonky, so I couldn't.

The thing is that audibly it isn't much different from your standard NAE alveolar or retroflex approximant with initial labialization, aside from that when I attempt to pronounce a plain alveolar or retroflex approximant I can't help but make it slightly lateral...

I think it's basically a "bunched r": i.e. a dorsal approximant which has some "bunching" or drawing backwards of the body of the tongue, leading it to sound different from a normal dorsal approximant and rather more like the coronal approximant which it's an alternative to for English /r/. That fits with your description of it as both dorsal and sounding similar to other realisations of English /r/. I think you make people think it's weirder than it really is when you transcribe it as [ʁ].

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:43 am Which sounds longer to you: “half an hour” or “thirty minutes”?

flicky wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 12:32 pm Thirty minutes sounds like it would feel shorter - it makes me think of a situation where every minute counts, like a deadline, whereas half an hour is time to kill and will feel like forever.

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 07, 2021 5:43 am Which sounds longer to you: “half an hour” or “thirty minutes”?

• Do you lean towards constructions like 'x past y' and 'x to y' or number-quoting like 'xx:yy'? E.g. is 5:10 "ten past five" or "five ten"?
• Do you prefer numbers only or do you use the phrases 'half past', 'quarter past' and 'quarter to'?
• Do you ever abbreviate "half past x" to "half x"?
• What's your typical precision? Do you quote to the minute, or to the nearest five minutes?

• Past and to.
• The phrases.
• Yes. I've heard there are places where "half x" confusingly means essentially "half to x", though.
• Usually nearest five.