Zompist Bboard Again

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sun Mar 15, 2026 10:18 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2026 5:24 pm

Starbeam wrote: ↑Fri Mar 13, 2026 12:00 pm

The only time I ever was caught (heh) off-guard is when the distinction occurred before l and r. For me, all vowels sorta weaken before liquids, so even people with like thick Phillymore accents would not make it as obvious as somebody from New York or England.

The cot-caught distinction is definitely alive and well before /l/ here, while my dialect like GA-adjacent varieties does not distinguish LOT before /r/ from NORTH/FORCE in most cases, except that tomorrow, borrow, and sorrow (but not Florida, horrible, or forest, unlike many East Coast varieties) have [ɑː], but other words with LOT before /r/ have [ɔ(ː)] like NORTH/FORCE (note, however, that while my native sorry has [ɔː], you can hear [ɑː] in sorry here as well, and people do 'split the difference' and pronounce it with [ɒː] (!), which I have caught myself doing).

What i meant was that i couldn't recognize it there, even though that falls more into the THOUGHT-LOT split as well. Nowadays i can definitely notice it. I also grew up without the borrow-forest split. I pronounce 'Los' and 'Las' in American placenames the same, but not with a consistent pronounciation: sometimes it has [ɔ(ː)], other times it has [ɑː]. I try to lean toward the former.

About 'Los' and 'Las' in American placenames, I tend to pronounce them with THOUGHT (which for me is [ɒ(ː)]) even when my LOT/FATHER (which is [a(ː)] when not adjacent to /r w h kw gw/) would be closer to the Spanish pronunciation. This may be due to dialect borrowing, as the English dialects spoken in these places are typically cot-caught-merged and their merged vowel feels closer to my THOUGHT vowel than to my LOT/FATHER vowel. This may also be due to mentally conflating 'Los' and 'Las' on the model of 'Los'.

Considering it is St. Patrick's Day today I was thinking about how I pronounce St. Paddy's Day as [ˌs̟ẽ̞ʔp̚ˈpʰɛɾiːsˌte̞(ː)]~[ˌs̟ẽ̞ʔp̚ˈpʰɛːjsˌte̞(ː)] as if it were /ˌseɪntˈpætizˌdeɪ/, not as *[ˌs̟ẽ̞ʔp̚ˈpʰæːɾiːsˌte̞(ː)]~*[ˌs̟ẽ̞ʔp̚ˈpʰæːːjsˌte̞(ː)] as if it were */ˌseɪntˈpædizˌdeɪ/.

That made me think of other things such as how I pronounce karate in English as [kʰəːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰəːˈʁˤɑːːj]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːːj] as if it were /kəˈrɑdi/, not as *[kʰəːˈʁˤɑɾi(ː)]~*[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑɾi(ː)]~*[kʰəːˈʁˤɑːj]~*[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːj] as if it were */kəˈrɑti/, how I pronounce Pabst as [pʰɛʔpsʲtʲ] as if it were /pæpst/, not as *[pʰɛːpsʲtʲ] as if it were */pæbst/, and how I pronounce medal as [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɯ̯] as if it were /ˈmɛtəl/, not as *[ˈmɜːɾɯ(ː)]~*[mɜːːɯ̯] as if it were */ˈmɛdəl/.

Clearly English orthography does not match my actual distribution of fortis and lenis phonemes, as shown by these words. Some of these forms are clearly in analogy with other words (e.g. medal and St. Paddy's Day with /t/) or reflect the influence of borrowed pronunciations (e.g. Pabst with /p/), while some of these forms are harder to account for (e.g. karate with /d/), which require things such as dialect borrowing for explanation.

So, does anyone else have any similar things in their own English varieties?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 5:56 pm That made me think of other things such as how I pronounce karate in English as [kʰəːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰəːˈʁˤɑːːj]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːːj] as if it were /kəˈrɑdi/, not as *[kʰəːˈʁˤɑɾi(ː)]~*[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑɾi(ː)]~*[kʰəːˈʁˤɑːj]~*[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːj] as if it were */kəˈrɑti/, how I pronounce Pabst as [pʰɛʔpsʲtʲ] as if it were /pæpst/, not as *[pʰɛːpsʲtʲ] as if it were */pæbst/, and how I pronounce medal as [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɯ̯] as if it were /ˈmɛtəl/, not as *[ˈmɜːɾɯ(ː)]~*[mɜːːɯ̯] as if it were */ˈmɛdəl/.

I can't help you with medial t/d because they are merged in my speech. (Yes, really. No lengthened vowel or other difference.)

I'd question though if anyone actually has /pæbst/... it's hard to say and also isn't how it's said in German. (You can get /bs/ in words like "absess", but only because the consonants go with different syllables.)

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:14 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 5:56 pm That made me think of other things such as how I pronounce karate in English as [kʰəːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰəːˈʁˤɑːːj]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːːj] as if it were /kəˈrɑdi/, not as *[kʰəːˈʁˤɑɾi(ː)]~*[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑɾi(ː)]~*[kʰəːˈʁˤɑːj]~*[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːj] as if it were */kəˈrɑti/, how I pronounce Pabst as [pʰɛʔpsʲtʲ] as if it were /pæpst/, not as *[pʰɛːpsʲtʲ] as if it were */pæbst/, and how I pronounce medal as [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɯ̯] as if it were /ˈmɛtəl/, not as *[ˈmɜːɾɯ(ː)]~*[mɜːːɯ̯] as if it were */ˈmɛdəl/.

I can't help you with medial t/d because they are merged in my speech. (Yes, really. No lengthened vowel or other difference.)

You don't even have a distinction in preceding PRICE as in wr/əɪ/ter versus r/aɪ/der?

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:14 pm I'd question though if anyone actually has /pæbst/... it's hard to say and also isn't how it's said in German. (You can get /bs/ in words like "absess", but only because the consonants go with different syllables.)

Hence my comment on how Pabst was borrowed with /p/ (as German has /p/ there).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:28 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:14 pm I can't help you with medial t/d because they are merged in my speech. (Yes, really. No lengthened vowel or other difference.)

You don't even have a distinction in preceding PRICE as in wr/əɪ/ter versus r/aɪ/der?

Correct, these words sound the same IMD.

(One nuance, though— I distinguish t/d before syllabic n. Thus bitten [bɪʔn̩] vs. bidden [bɪdn̩].)

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:37 pm (One nuance, though— I distinguish t/d before syllabic n. Thus bitten [bɪʔn̩] vs. bidden [bɪdn̩].)

To my knowledge this is the norm for NAE.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:14 pm I'd question though if anyone actually has /pæbst/... it's hard to say and also isn't how it's said in German. (You can get /bs/ in words like "absess", but only because the consonants go with different syllables.)

I do. The vowel is long.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:47 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:37 pm (One nuance, though— I distinguish t/d before syllabic n. Thus bitten [bɪʔn̩] vs. bidden [bɪdn̩].)

To my knowledge this is the norm for NAE.

I've heard flapping in at least one of /-tən -dən/. I'd expect some people to merge them as [bɪɾən]. But surely a small percentage.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 5:15 am

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:14 pm I'd question though if anyone actually has /pæbst/... it's hard to say and also isn't how it's said in German. (You can get /bs/ in words like "absess", but only because the consonants go with different syllables.)

I do. The vowel is long.

This is what I would expect from someone trying to pronounce 'Pabst' as spelled in English, rather than as borrowed from German.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 5:15 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:47 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:37 pm (One nuance, though— I distinguish t/d before syllabic n. Thus bitten [bɪʔn̩] vs. bidden [bɪdn̩].)

To my knowledge this is the norm for NAE.

I've heard flapping in at least one of /-tən -dən/. I'd expect some people to merge them as [bɪɾən]. But surely a small percentage.

This is somewhat complex, because I am familiar with flapping of /-dən/ alongside realization as [dn̩] or [nː], but at the same time historical /-tən/ has two distinct and non-interchangeable pronunciations for me. Consider gotten [ˈɡ̥aʔn̩(ː)] versus gettin' [ˈɡ̥ɜɾɘ̃(ː)(n)]~[ɡ̥ɜɘ̯n]; flapping or eliding the former or not flapping or eliding the latter both feel wrong or at least unnatural to me. I would even synchronically analyze these as /ˈɡɑtn/ and /ˈɡɛtən/, if I were to use GA phonemes, or as /ˈɡatn/ and /ˈɡɜtən/, if I were to use my own dialect's phonemes.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 1:20 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 5:15 am

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:14 pm I'd question though if anyone actually has /pæbst/... it's hard to say and also isn't how it's said in German. (You can get /bs/ in words like "absess", but only because the consonants go with different syllables.)

I do. The vowel is long.

This is what I would expect from someone trying to pronounce 'Pabst' as spelled in English, rather than as borrowed from German.

I come from a part of the country where German spelling rules are not followed. There's a place name Wiehle that's pronounced wheelie. In DC, people just have to memorize that John Boehner isn't John Boner. There's no active rule and there aren't any other examples.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 4:05 am There's a place name Wiehle that's pronounced wheelie.

Not "Whyl"?

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 4:05 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 1:20 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Wed Mar 18, 2026 5:15 am
I do. The vowel is long.

This is what I would expect from someone trying to pronounce 'Pabst' as spelled in English, rather than as borrowed from German.

I come from a part of the country where German spelling rules are not followed. There's a place name Wiehle that's pronounced wheelie. In DC, people just have to memorize that John Boehner isn't John Boner. There's no active rule and there aren't any other examples.

Pronouncing Wiehle as /ˈwili/ is in accordance with the spelling rules here, as people here pronounce German <w> as /w/ and German <-e> as /i/. OTOH, pronouncing Boehner as /ˈbeɪnər/ is self-evident here, and pronouncing it as /ˈboʊnər/ is just wrong.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 8:30 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 4:05 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Thu Mar 19, 2026 1:20 pm
This is what I would expect from someone trying to pronounce 'Pabst' as spelled in English, rather than as borrowed from German.

I come from a part of the country where German spelling rules are not followed. There's a place name Wiehle that's pronounced wheelie. In DC, people just have to memorize that John Boehner isn't John Boner. There's no active rule and there aren't any other examples.

Pronouncing Wiehle as /ˈwili/ is in accordance with the spelling rules here, as people here pronounce German <w> as /w/ and German <-e> as /i/. OTOH, pronouncing Boehner as /ˈbeɪnər/ is self-evident here, and pronouncing it as /ˈboʊnər/ is just wrong.

It's obviously pronounced like non-rhotic burner

anteallach wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 11:00 am

Travis B. wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 8:30 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Mar 20, 2026 4:05 am
I come from a part of the country where German spelling rules are not followed. There's a place name Wiehle that's pronounced wheelie. In DC, people just have to memorize that John Boehner isn't John Boner. There's no active rule and there aren't any other examples.

Pronouncing Wiehle as /ˈwili/ is in accordance with the spelling rules here, as people here pronounce German <w> as /w/ and German <-e> as /i/. OTOH, pronouncing Boehner as /ˈbeɪnər/ is self-evident here, and pronouncing it as /ˈboʊnər/ is just wrong.

It's obviously pronounced like non-rhotic burner

In the dialect here NURSE is only used for <oe> before <r>, as in "Goerke's Corners", a placename in Waukesha county, is pronounced with /ˈɡɜrkiz/. Note that this is not consistent, though, because "Boerner botanical gardens" is pronounced with both /ˈbɔrnər/ and /ˈbɜrnər/ depending on who you ask.

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 7:14 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 17, 2026 5:56 pm That made me think of other things such as how I pronounce karate in English as [kʰəːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːɾi(ː)]~[kʰəːˈʁˤɑːːj]~[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːːj] as if it were /kəˈrɑdi/, not as *[kʰəːˈʁˤɑɾi(ː)]~*[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑɾi(ː)]~*[kʰəːˈʁˤɑːj]~*[kʰʁ̩ˤːˈʁˤɑːj] as if it were */kəˈrɑti/, how I pronounce Pabst as [pʰɛʔpsʲtʲ] as if it were /pæpst/, not as *[pʰɛːpsʲtʲ] as if it were */pæbst/, and how I pronounce medal as [ˈmɜɾɯ(ː)]~[mɜːɯ̯] as if it were /ˈmɛtəl/, not as *[ˈmɜːɾɯ(ː)]~*[mɜːːɯ̯] as if it were */ˈmɛdəl/.

I can't help you with medial t/d because they are merged in my speech. (Yes, really. No lengthened vowel or other difference.)

I'd question though if anyone actually has /pæbst/... it's hard to say and also isn't how it's said in German. (You can get /bs/ in words like "absess", but only because the consonants go with different syllables.)

As a sidenote, I misheard and mispronounced "laptop" as "labtop" for years. Did anybody else do this?

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 8:34 pmAs a sidenote, I misheard and mispronounced "laptop" as "labtop" for years. Did anybody else do this?

Is there really a proninciation difference between the two though? Isn't the aspiration of "p" absent because of the following "t" (+ aspiration)?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 9:06 am

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 8:34 pmAs a sidenote, I misheard and mispronounced "laptop" as "labtop" for years. Did anybody else do this?

Is there really a proninciation difference between the two though? Isn't the aspiration of "p" absent because of the following "t" (+ aspiration)?

To me there is a definite difference, and it has nothing to do with aspiration -- laptop /ˈlæpˌtɑp/ [ˈʟ̞ɛ̌ʔp̚ˌtʰáʔp] versus *'labtop' */ˈlæbˌtɑp/ *[ˈʟ̞ɛ̂ːp̚ˌtʰáʔp]. (I don't normally transcribe tone in English, mind you, as it is not phonemic in NAE, but it adds to the salience of the distinction here.)

Yes, generally English speakers will have some distinction there using a combination of glottal reinforcement of the fortis stop, a longer vowel before the lenis one and the fortis stop itself being longer.

jal wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 9:06 am

jcb wrote: ↑Sun Mar 22, 2026 8:34 pmAs a sidenote, I misheard and mispronounced "laptop" as "labtop" for years. Did anybody else do this?

Is there really a proninciation difference between the two though? Isn't the aspiration of "p" absent because of the following "t" (+ aspiration)?


JAL

Yes, the aspiration on /p/ is missing, but it's still unvoiced, and /b/ is still voiced.

And as Travis said, there's also a tonal and length difference on the vowel.

Maybe I thought it was "lab" because the "computer lab" was a common destination at school, and "lap" didn't make sense, because I almost always put/used a laptop on a table, and not my lap.

jcb wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:04 pmYes, the aspiration on /p/ is missing, but it's still unvoiced, and /b/ is still voiced.

It was my understanding that the voice/unvoiced distinction in English is minor compared to aspirated/unaspirated, and the distinction gets lost in many environments. But maybe I'm overgeneralizing some special cases like intervocalic flapping in GenAm.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Tue Mar 24, 2026 4:54 am

jcb wrote: ↑Mon Mar 23, 2026 11:04 pmYes, the aspiration on /p/ is missing, but it's still unvoiced, and /b/ is still voiced.

It was my understanding that the voice/unvoiced distinction in English is minor compared to aspirated/unaspirated, and the distinction gets lost in many environments. But maybe I'm overgeneralizing some special cases like intervocalic flapping in GenAm.

There seems to be a dialectal difference between me and jcb here, as my /b/ in this case is voiceless, but differs from my /p/ in (pre)glottalization, preceding vowel length, and tone.