United States Politics Thread 47

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malloc
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by malloc »

rotting bones wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:15 amFor me, a bigger worry than Russia is Milei's popularity after the way he governed.
Quite. Part of what makes this situation so alarming is the fact that reactionism has gained enormous popularity across the world, not just one country here or there.
rotting bones wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:23 amThe other Trumpists are unpopular. Trump himself said there's no Trumpism without Trump. Americans want the cult leader, not pathetic cultists.
First, one must compare their popularity with the opposition. If they're running against people that votes like even less, they will win elections even with terrible popularity. Second, low popularity is quite easy to fix with sufficient propaganda. If people like Musk use their control of the media to promote another Republican as the national messiah, they will undoubtedly see their popularity soar.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by keenir »

malloc wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 7:31 am
rotting bones wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:23 amThe other Trumpists are unpopular. Trump himself said there's no Trumpism without Trump. Americans want the cult leader, not pathetic cultists.
Second, low popularity is quite easy to fix with sufficient propaganda.
case in point: Madam President Sarah 'I can see Russia from my back door' Palin. as I recall, she had even more media favoring her, than Musk, er, Trump does.
If people like Musk use their control of the media to promote another Republican as the national messiah, they will undoubtedly see their popularity soar.
I believe the expression is "if he's in charge, he's doing to terrible job of it"...if Musk is calling the shots of the media, why is the media still critical of him?
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by malloc »

keenir wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 8:03 amI believe the expression is "if he's in charge, he's doing to terrible job of it"...if Musk is calling the shots of the media, why is the media still critical of him?
That depends on which media you have in mind. Plenty of niche media for educated liberal and leftist types like us still criticizes Musk and Trump, but mainstream media consumed by the average person has mostly bent the knee.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by keenir »

malloc wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 9:33 am
keenir wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 8:03 amI believe the expression is "if he's in charge, he's doing to terrible job of it"...if Musk is calling the shots of the media, why is the media still critical of him?
That depends on which media you have in mind. Plenty of niche media for educated liberal and leftist types like us still criticizes Musk and Trump, but mainstream media consumed by the average person has mostly bent the knee.
so you don't consider CNN or MSNBC or the BBC to be mainstream?
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by rotting bones »

Disclaimer: I haven't slept in days. Working.
malloc wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 7:31 am Quite. Part of what makes this situation so alarming is the fact that reactionism has gained enormous popularity across the world, not just one country here or there.
I was worried this might happen before Biden was elected because of the economic indicators. Fascism is what you get when you combine economic anxiety with "left-wing" controlled opposition that's designed from the ground up to tutt convincingly and prevent systemic changes.

Either way, none of this is a reason to increase suffering. Just pick a candidate to match the electorate's energy.
malloc wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 7:31 am First, one must compare their popularity with the opposition. If they're running against people that votes like even less, they will win elections even with terrible popularity.
To make people ok with the unnecessary downturns of the capitalist business cycle, all they had to say is, "We had to purge the country of bad people. A, since you hate B, B. B, since you hate A, A."? It can't be that simple, right? Then all we'd have to do is find a way to harness human stupidity to power our cities. With the right media campaign, do you think we can convince reactionaries that running in human-sized hamster wheels makes them superior to the woke mob? I bet we can even charge for seats to have people come in and throw peanuts at them as they run. Being made fun of has never stopped them before.
malloc wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 7:31 am Second, low popularity is quite easy to fix with sufficient propaganda. If people like Musk use their control of the media to promote another Republican as the national messiah, they will undoubtedly see their popularity soar.
I think you're overestimating Xitter's popularity and power. It can only be used to amplify and suppress messages for its willing victims. I've never posted there or read much on it.

But you know what's a scary thought? Because of its structure and position within the social system, Xitter might have created its own owner. Xitter radicalized an idiotic billionaire, made him buy it, and thereby freed itself from the limitations imposed on it by its creators. No planning necessary. Given what Xitter is and where it is, could things have turned out any other way?
malloc wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 9:33 am That depends on which media you have in mind. Plenty of niche media for educated liberal and leftist types like us still criticizes Musk and Trump, but mainstream media consumed by the average person has mostly bent the knee.
Leftist media is supposed to be for the working masses. If it's fringe or for educated people, there's something wrong with its priorities. It needs to feature more exclusives on wrestling, strip shows or whatever until gutter rats are seen reading it. You can either appeal to school marms or the electorate. Pick a lane.

Despite the mainstream coverage, the left is far from dead. There are protests and successes around the world: https://www.youtube.com/@positiveleftistnews/videos We just don't hear much about it because of profit-minded news bosses.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Ahzoh »

rotting bones wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 2:00 pm Then all we'd have to do is find a way to harness human stupidity to power our cities. With the right media campaign, do you think we can convince reactionaries that running in human-sized hamster wheels makes them superior to the woke mob? I bet we can even charge for seats to have people come in and throw peanuts at them as they run. Being made fun of has never stopped them before.
Absolutely, it's already been proven MAGA will kill themselves (and others) to spite the liberals.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by rotting bones »

Ahzoh wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 1:47 am Absolutely, it's already been proven MAGA will kill themselves (and others) to spite the liberals.
Sure, but what fraction of the population can keep throwing themselves over the cliff like lemmings? Brazil did overcome the alt right and return to Lula. (although his popularity is at an all time low)
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by jcb »

Leftist media is supposed to be for the working masses. If it's fringe or for educated people, there's something wrong with its priorities. It needs to feature more exclusives on wrestling, strip shows or whatever until gutter rats are seen reading it. You can either appeal to school marms or the electorate. Pick a lane.
Agreed. The left needs better propagandists. You're not the first to notice this. Here's Vaush explaining the genius of StoneToss: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hlCvLfGzoaw
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Ahzoh »

rotting bones wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 5:03 pm
Ahzoh wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 1:47 am Absolutely, it's already been proven MAGA will kill themselves (and others) to spite the liberals.
Sure, but what fraction of the population can keep throwing themselves over the cliff like lemmings? Brazil did overcome the alt right and return to Lula. (although his popularity is at an all time low)
We're talking about the United States, not Brazil (or any other South American country), every country has its own brand of hopelessly stupid citizenry. Some in greater proportional quantities than others.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by rotting bones »

Ahzoh wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 6:11 pm We're talking about the United States, not Brazil (or any other South American country), every country has its own brand of hopelessly stupid citizenry. Some in greater proportional quantities than others.
This is downstream from me mentioning Milei: viewtopic.php?p=91939#p91939

McCarthyism lasted for 12 years. The question is whether it can get enough self-sustaining popular support to keep going for a hundred years this time. I'd be very surprised if it lasts 30 years.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Ares Land »

rotting bones wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:15 am For me, a bigger worry than Russia is Milei's popularity after the way he governed.
I don't know enough about Argentina to tell if that's going to last long. But I'd expect Milei to be a model for future conservatives.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by zompist »

Ares Land wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 11:13 am
rotting bones wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:15 am For me, a bigger worry than Russia is Milei's popularity after the way he governed.
I don't know enough about Argentina to tell if that's going to last long. But I'd expect Milei to be a model for future conservatives.
For stuff like this?
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by jcb »

zompist wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 6:11 pm
Ares Land wrote: Sat Feb 15, 2025 11:13 am
rotting bones wrote: Thu Feb 13, 2025 3:15 am For me, a bigger worry than Russia is Milei's popularity after the way he governed.
I don't know enough about Argentina to tell if that's going to last long. But I'd expect Milei to be a model for future conservatives.
For stuff like this?
Why not? Trump and Melania already pumped and dumped their own memecoins, after all.
- https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/official-trump/
- https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/melania-meme/

In other news, two homeless children froze to death in Detroit.
- https://www.freep.com/story/news/local/ ... 413646007/

If only our society had the wealth and the will to do something about it.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Raphael »

rotting bones wrote: Fri Feb 14, 2025 8:31 pm
McCarthyism lasted for 12 years.
Out of curiosity, how are you counting this? How do you arrive at the 12 years number?
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by rotting bones »

Raphael wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2025 7:25 am Out of curiosity, how are you counting this? How do you arrive at the 12 years number?
Loosely:

McCarthy became involved in Anti-Communism in 1950: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyi ... nvolvement

John Henry Faulk won his court case in 1962: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Decline

There were precursors and challenges though:

In 1947, Truman ordered that the civil service be screened for loyalty: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Origins

By 1959, Earl Warren had made it difficult to use McCarthyist tactics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism#Decline

As for repercussions, with very stringent criteria, you could make the case that McCarthyism never went away. The right-wing "arguments" we have seen on this forum could be interpreted as unforced McCarthyism. The liberals who are in favor of any leftist idea, no matter how insane, but shut down as soon as it smacks of the dreaded C-word could be McCarthyists. Anyone who speaks disparagingly of "globalism" could be a McCarthyist, including today's "Marxists". That's probably going too far.

BTW, the Christian Scientists apparently hated McCarthyism.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by rotting bones »

A researcher tells me NASA is cooked next week. If science is going to be private/fascist, I don't want humans to go to space. In that situation, science serves no broader purpose except making CEOs/dictators powerful and shareholders rich. The people can't dictate what this power should be used for.

I keep asking people to make scientific research government work and not for profit. All these McCarthyists just don't listen. Since scientific power is going to be weaponized by people who want me either servile or impoverished, I'm effectively rooting against human progress at this point in history.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Travis B. »

rotting bones wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2025 4:09 pm As for repercussions, with very stringent criteria, you could make the case that McCarthyism never went away. The right-wing "arguments" we have seen on this forum could be interpreted as unforced McCarthyism. The liberals who are in favor of any leftist idea, no matter how insane, but shut down as soon as it smacks of the dreaded C-word could be McCarthyists. Anyone who speaks disparagingly of "globalism" could be a McCarthyist, including today's "Marxists". That's probably going too far.
People on the left hating big-C Communism did not originate with McCarthyism. Rather, it started with the Bolsheviks' betrayal of the Russian Revolution (cf. their crushing of actual popular power and initiation of one-party rule and like) well before then, and was only reinforced by Stalinism and the Spanish Civil War (where it was not the Nationalists who suppressed the Spanish Revolution but rather the Stalinists and their Republican enablers). Back when I was an anarchist I was of the view that after we had dealt with the capitalists we would next have to deal with the Communists, lest they repeat what they did during the Russian Revolution and the Spanish Civil War.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by rotting bones »

Travis B. wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2025 5:50 pm People on the left hating big-C Communism did not originate with McCarthyism. Rather, it started with the Bolsheviks' betrayal of the Russian Revolution (cf. their crushing of actual popular power and initiation of one-party rule and like) well before then, and was only reinforced by Stalinism and the Spanish Civil War (where it was not the Nationalists who suppressed the Spanish Revolution but rather the Stalinists and their Republican enablers). Back when I was an anarchist I was of the view that after we had dealt with the capitalists we would next have to deal with the Communists, lest they repeat what they did during the Russian Revolution and the Spanish Civil War.
Smacks of Communism as in, e.g. more government jobs. Also, Marxists who criticize globalism are usually worried about global capitalist exploitation, not international solidarity.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by Travis B. »

rotting bones wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2025 5:59 pm
Travis B. wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2025 5:50 pm People on the left hating big-C Communism did not originate with McCarthyism. Rather, it started with the Bolsheviks' betrayal of the Russian Revolution (cf. their crushing of actual popular power and initiation of one-party rule and like) well before then, and was only reinforced by Stalinism and the Spanish Civil War (where it was not the Nationalists who suppressed the Spanish Revolution but rather the Stalinists and their Republican enablers). Back when I was an anarchist I was of the view that after we had dealt with the capitalists we would next have to deal with the Communists, lest they repeat what they did during the Russian Revolution and the Spanish Civil War.
Smacks of Communism as in, e.g. more government jobs. Also, Marxists who criticize globalism are usually worried about global capitalist exploitation, not international solidarity.
The people who are left-of-center who are worried about things smacking of Communism in that sense tend to be only barely left-of-center, e.g. people like my parents, who are really centrists, and who sometimes almost sound like anti-Trump conservatives.
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Re: United States Politics Thread 47

Post by rotting bones »

Travis B. wrote: Sun Feb 16, 2025 7:56 pm The people who are left-of-center who are worried about things smacking of Communism in that sense tend to be only barely left-of-center, e.g. people like my parents, who are really centrists, and who sometimes almost sound like anti-Trump conservatives.
I randomly found a video that explains my frustration with the center-left very well: https://youtu.be/XCnImxVWbvc?si=2_c-gjFfy4wALet9

PS. Its solution isn't based on good theory though.
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