Zompist Bboard Again

Aha. I'd call it a weird platter, then, or a board for the wooden one.

foxcatdog wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:40 pm

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Tue Aug 08, 2023 5:34 pm I'm likewise unfamiliar with it. How is it actually used in practice?

You put things on it and don't tip it too much to one side so they fall off. It's usually used for serving a smorgasboard of things.

In Germany, they are put on the table just like plates, typically for breakfast, but also for supper, as in Germany that traditionally means bread, cold cuts, cheese, etc., similar to breakfast. Here are some pictures of how a German breakfast table with Brettchen looks like. Conversely, at a smorgasboard you normally get plates in Germany, because the danger of stuff falling off them while being carried to the table or being eaten while standing is lower with plates. Or did you mean stuff being served on them, like here? But those normally are bigger.

And I only learned from this discussion that apparently, most people use the diminutive when talking about them. See? You never stop learning new things.

Keeping with the kitchen theme, what do you call an area to the right or left of a kitchen sink, with a raised rim and access to the sink's drainage, where you can place various kitchen utensils that you just washed in the sink or plan to wash in the sink soon?

Is there a fancy term for when a single phoneme is ultimately from two allophones that hardly conflict with each other?

For example: most native English /ʒ/ comes from */zj/ or */dʒ/, and depending on the word, can be replaced with one or the other with limited changes in understanding. But the fact remains the sequence /zj/ and the affricate /dʒ/ are not the same phoneme, and don't really change to /ʒ/ in the same environments. For the sake of analogy, i'm not counting the fact most of English */dʒ/ > /ʒ/ is imitation of French and hyperforeignisms/ changes in register by adding or removing /ʒ/.

Same question with telling apart allophone meaning "differing phone as the result of complementary distribution" versus "differing phone as the result of free variation". If a word for any of the three concepts doesn't already exist, may i make one up?

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:51 am Keeping with the kitchen theme, what do you call an area to the right or left of a kitchen sink, with a raised rim and access to the sink's drainage, where you can place various kitchen utensils that you just washed in the sink or plan to wash in the sink soon?

the area itself is just the counter, no special term for it being next to the sink. if you have a separate rack for putting dishes into though that's the dish rack or drying rack

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:46 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:51 am Keeping with the kitchen theme, what do you call an area to the right or left of a kitchen sink, with a raised rim and access to the sink's drainage, where you can place various kitchen utensils that you just washed in the sink or plan to wash in the sink soon?

the area itself is just the counter, no special term for it being next to the sink. if you have a separate rack for putting dishes into though that's the dish rack or drying rack

What Raphael means is what we in German call the Ablauffläche, and is distinct from the counter as such.

Emily wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 12:46 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 10:51 am Keeping with the kitchen theme, what do you call an area to the right or left of a kitchen sink, with a raised rim and access to the sink's drainage, where you can place various kitchen utensils that you just washed in the sink or plan to wash in the sink soon?

the area itself is just the counter, no special term for it being next to the sink. if you have a separate rack for putting dishes into though that's the dish rack or drying rack

It's a draining board. In particular, what I see in the picture is very definitely a draining board, with the drainage into the kitchen sink being a key part. Stacking dishes to be washed on an adjacent worktop does not make said worktop a draining board. The tilt is fairly fundamental part of the design of a draining board.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Thu Aug 10, 2023 8:38 pm Is there a fancy term for when a single phoneme is ultimately from two allophones that hardly conflict with each other?

For example: most native English /ʒ/ comes from */zj/ or */dʒ/, and depending on the word, can be replaced with one or the other with limited changes in understanding. But the fact remains the sequence /zj/ and the affricate /dʒ/ are not the same phoneme, and don't really change to /ʒ/ in the same environments. For the sake of analogy, i'm not counting the fact most of English */dʒ/ > /ʒ/ is imitation of French and hyperforeignisms/ changes in register by adding or removing /ʒ/.

Same question with telling apart allophone meaning "differing phone as the result of complementary distribution" versus "differing phone as the result of free variation". If a word for any of the three concepts doesn't already exist, may i make one up?

Dunno but latin *ŋ isn't really considered a distinct phoneme despite coming from 2 distinct sources

Yeah, English eng isn't a full phoneme either IMO. Surely some of the more formal linguists on the board have to have some direction i can take. I'll wait a bit then, i'll just jump the gun and invent neologisms for them.

Quasi-phoneme is a term that I've seen used.

On what grounds is ŋ not an English phoneme?

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 4:30 amQuasi-phoneme is a term that I've seen used.

Do you remember where you saw it? No worries if not, tho i'm curious if it was a formal source or informal hobby thing like this.

KathTheDragon wrote:On what grounds is /ŋ/ not an English phoneme?

Because i agree with the idea that standard English /ŋ/ is basically /ng/ ([ŋg]), with the /g/ dropping at the end of a syllable, unless a vowel follows in the next. Including [ŋg] following a syllabic vowel. There are word derivatives like "angry", which delete a vowel in a word that put it after /ŋg/; but in casual speech i hear /æŋɹi/ and /æŋgəɹi/ much more than /æŋgɹi/. The contrast between "finger" and "singer"'s second syllables i have heard, but i've never heard a lack of contrast be marked. However, it's just my personal experience, and subject to error yada yada. I'm not claiming expertise nor will dig my heels in, it's just what i perceive and consider the most likely pattern.

I also think i might have a speech impediment or accent: i have made many typos of final -ng as -nk, and catch myself saying [ŋk]/ something similar constantly. I actively have to work on avoiding it, because i only notice once i actually say it. It's not like my other regionalisms which feel more like alternative options than the first and only thought. I don't know if it's English progressively losing obstruent voicing (as if [ŋg] > [ŋk]), or literally something exclusive to me. Might just be a jokey habit i got stuck with. Bringing this up largely for perspective, if it helps.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 12:34 pm

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 4:30 amQuasi-phoneme is a term that I've seen used.

Do you remember where you saw it? No worries if not, tho i'm curious if it was a formal source or informal hobby thing like this.

I think it was in Paul Kiparsky's chapter in the book titled "Phonological Typology" edited by Larry Hyman and Frans Plank.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 12:34 pmbut in casual speech i hear /æŋɹi/ and /æŋgəɹi/ much more than /æŋgɹi/.

I've never heard those two variants before, and I exclusively say /aŋgri/.

The contrast between "finger" and "singer"'s second syllables i have heard, but i've never heard a lack of contrast be marked.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 1:43 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 12:34 pmbut in casual speech i hear /æŋɹi/ and /æŋgəɹi/ much more than /æŋgɹi/.

I've never heard those two variants before, and I exclusively say /aŋgri/.

Same with me.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 2:15 pm

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 12:34 pm

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 4:30 amQuasi-phoneme is a term that I've seen used.

Do you remember where you saw it? No worries if not, tho i'm curious if it was a formal source or informal hobby thing like this.

I think it was in Paul Kiparsky's chapter in the book titled "Phonological Typology" edited by Larry Hyman and Frans Plank.

I am actually impressed you remember the source so vividly. Thank you! Tho may you please list them hereon? If you're able ofc.

KathTheDragon wrote:

I wrote:The contrast between "finger" and "singer"'s second syllables i have heard, but i've never heard a lack of contrast be marked.

I don't understand what you're saying here.

The singer-finger business is about how "singer" is /ŋəɹ/ but "finger" is /ŋgəɹ/; because "finger" isn't adding a suffix to an -/ŋ/ word like "singer" is. It's the usual example i hear of NG-coalescence. I've yet to hear of people making both words have -/ŋəɹ/ or -/ŋgəɹ/ be immediately recognized for it.

Ah, so you'd analyse them as /fɪn.gər/ vs /sɪng.ər/?

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 2:35 pm Ah, so you'd analyse them as /fɪn.gər/ vs /sɪng.ər/?

Basically, yeah.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 1:47 am

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Sun Aug 13, 2023 1:43 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 12:34 pmbut in casual speech i hear /æŋɹi/ and /æŋgəɹi/ much more than /æŋgɹi/.

I've never heard those two variants before, and I exclusively say /aŋgri/.

Same with me.

I too exclusively have /ŋg/ in angry (and have never heard those other two variants before, ever).