Zompist Bboard Again

All of you are correct. Allow me to elaborate.

Yes, leap seconds have existed for several years now, but they are added to years or months as a stop-gap measure. I was (perhaps inarticulately) alluding to the fact that leap seconds will eventually become part of the normal day, by default. In a few thousand years, we'll start adding "another leap second" to days from time to time, in addition to the default leap second received by every single day. At that point I guess we'll just call the new one the leap second, and the previous one a normal second. Would we then accept that there are two types of "seconds," one for clocks and one for really good clocks? Would we teach children that there are 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, and 60 to 61 seconds in a minute, dependiing on the minute?

As for other SI units, I think thisproblem doesn't apply. Yes, the meter has been given an empirical measurement separate from other units, but there is no reason to care how this relates to a larger system of units. For example, if a person was by convention divided into two vertical sections, the top meter and the bottom meter, and humans continued to elongate over geological time, then eventually it would become awkward that people are simultaneously two meters and three meters tall. This is essentially what is happening with seconds and days, but it does not happen with meters and, say, the Earth's diameter. If they change the length of the meter, the diameter of the Earth in meters can be changed with no more inconvenience than the expense of updating a few textbooks. The same is true if the meter stays the same and the diameter of the Earth changes, although in that scenario textbooks would be the least of our worries.

As for Dousman, yes the NIMBYest city in the northern Lower Peninsula would not abide by such shenanigans. However, I'm currently trying to work out how to wrestle them into accepting a bus lane down the middle of State Street, so I have to pick my battles.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:50 am

Ares Land wrote: ↑Sun Jun 04, 2023 4:52 am Readers can be put off by difficult names. Fred and George are I think a little easier than Hunahpu or Ixbalanque. Maybe my concern is a bit outdated and people are more used to it. But I don't know. People have trouble with Russian names in Dostoevsky which suggests the tolerance level isn't too high.

Easy to remember doesn't have to mean familiar - Aragorn or Bilbo weren't exactly English household names when Tolkien coined them, even if they now have become familiar due to his books. It's enough that names are short and easily pronounceable. What throws a lot of people off with Russian names is both insecurity on how to pronounce them and the unfamiliar conventions on name use - last names vs. first name plus patronymic vs. hypocoristic forms, so if you don't want to drive away the average reader, probably better avoid naming conventions where people are addressed with different names and titles depending on situation and relationship, and long names with intimidating orthography. If your conculture has that, better keep it in the background. (OTOH, it may be actually good for immersion and for giving your concultures their own feel to go into a bit of aliennes here; if your writing is good and your story is compelling, readers will go along, as the continuing appeal of the great Russian novels shows.)

Chiming in late on this, but I think Tolkien's approach is outdated. One, why not show off your conlang? Two, people are much more used to unusual names these days.

For an actual example, there's Martine Arkady's A Memory Called Empire, whose main character is Mahit Dzmare of Lsel Station, and who spends most of the book in the tongue-twisting Teixcalaan. A few other protagonists from books I've read lately: Yeine, Harrowhark, Binti, Maskull. Oh, and the Chinese writer Liu Cixin, if you can believe it, named his characters in Chinese.

On the other hand, I've been reading Battle Angel Alita, and I learned that Alita's name in Japanese is Garii. I think the translator made the right call there.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:06 am Chiming in late on this, but I think Tolkien's approach is outdated. One, why not show off your conlang? Two, people are much more used to unusual names these days.

I disagree, but mostly because I tend to sympathise with Tolkien’s view of phonaesthetics, namely that native English names have a particular resonance for native English-speakers. (See also: Hofstadter’s essay on Translations of Jabberwocky.)

For an actual example, there's Martine Arkady's A Memory Called Empire, whose main character is Mahit Dzmare of Lsel Station, and who spends most of the book in the tongue-twisting Teixcalaan.

/teiʃkalaːn/ is tongue-twisting? Or maybe it’s just that I read too much about Mesoamerican languages.

A few other protagonists from books I've read lately: Yeine, Harrowhark, Binti, Maskull.

At the very least, ‘Harrowhark’ is as English as any of Tolkien’s names, and indeed more transparently so. I’m tempted to say the same about ‘Maskull’ — the name reminds me immediately of John Maskelyne.

In fact, I’ve long suspected that most fantasy authors subconsciously make their names more English-like than they intend to. Or, if they try to avoid it, they invariably over-compensate and come up with things like the aforementioned ‘Dzmare of Lsel’, which looks like few languages on Earth. (It might be commonplace in Japhug or Dorig, but probably not much else.) You almost never see characters with naturalistic-but-non-English names like, say, Nampijinpa or Ngata or Metuktire or Goyaałé — or, for that matter, Celeborn or Sauron.

On the other hand, I've been reading Battle Angel Alita, and I learned that Alita's name in Japanese is Garii. I think the translator made the right call there.

Looking it up on Wikipedia, apparently the name has also been translated as Gally, which fits the Japanese better. Hard to say if it would be better than Alita, though.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:39 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:06 am For an actual example, there's Martine Arkady's A Memory Called Empire, whose main character is Mahit Dzmare of Lsel Station, and who spends most of the book in the tongue-twisting Teixcalaan.

/teiʃkalaːn/ is tongue-twisting? Or maybe it’s just that I read too much about Mesoamerican languages.

It's way harder than (say) "Romulan" or "Mordor."

Or, if they try to avoid it, they invariably over-compensate and come up with things like the aforementioned ‘Dzmare of Lsel’, which looks like few languages on Earth.

These names are, I believe, based on Armenian.

On the other hand, I've been reading Battle Angel Alita, and I learned that Alita's name in Japanese is Garii. I think the translator made the right call there.

Looking it up on Wikipedia, apparently the name has also been translated as Gally, which fits the Japanese better. Hard to say if it would be better than Alita, though.

There's no right answer in these things... "Gally" is not terrible, and according to the translator's note the Japanese name is intended to sound not very feminine. It's rather unusual, so far as I know, for manga/anime names to be modified quite that much.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 5:43 amWould we teach children that there are 24 hours in a day, 60 minutes in an hour, and 60 to 61 seconds in a minute, dependiing on the minute?

It feels more likely to me that, assuming we're still using 24:60:60 time by the time it becomes a problem, the extra seconds would just be all added to the end of the day in one block.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:32 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:39 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:06 am For an actual example, there's Martine Arkady's A Memory Called Empire, whose main character is Mahit Dzmare of Lsel Station, and who spends most of the book in the tongue-twisting Teixcalaan.

/teiʃkalaːn/ is tongue-twisting? Or maybe it’s just that I read too much about Mesoamerican languages.

It's way harder than (say) "Romulan" or "Mordor."

Fair enough.

Or, if they try to avoid it, they invariably over-compensate and come up with things like the aforementioned ‘Dzmare of Lsel’, which looks like few languages on Earth.

These names are, I believe, based on Armenian.

They are?

(looks up Armenian phonology…)

Well, it does look like Armenian is a lot more permissive with consonant clusters than I thought. Still, it has nothing comparable to ‘Lsel’.

On the other hand, I've been reading Battle Angel Alita, and I learned that Alita's name in Japanese is Garii. I think the translator made the right call there.

Looking it up on Wikipedia, apparently the name has also been translated as Gally, which fits the Japanese better. Hard to say if it would be better than Alita, though.

There's no right answer in these things... "Gally" is not terrible, and according to the translator's note the Japanese name is intended to sound not very feminine. It's rather unusual, so far as I know, for manga/anime names to be modified quite that much.

Well, I looked it up, and apparently ‘Alita’ in the original was actually her father’s cat!

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:52 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:32 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:39 am Or, if they try to avoid it, they invariably over-compensate and come up with things like the aforementioned ‘Dzmare of Lsel’, which looks like few languages on Earth.

These names are, I believe, based on Armenian.

They are?

(looks up Armenian phonology…)

I've long thought that Armenian is apparently the real-life language with the names that sound most like stereotypical science-fiction names.

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:57 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:52 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:32 am

These names are, I believe, based on Armenian.

They are?

(looks up Armenian phonology…)

I've long thought that Armenian is apparently the real-life language with the names that sound most like stereotypical science-fiction names.

Surely that would have to be Albanian? (And for stereotypical fantasy, I’m tempted to go with Cornish.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:59 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:57 am
I've long thought that Armenian is apparently the real-life language with the names that sound most like stereotypical science-fiction names.

Surely that would have to be Albanian?

Hmm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... _Americans

Viken Babikian, Peter Balakian, Paul Boghossian, Aram Chobanian, Richard Dekmejian...

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:14 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:59 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:57 am
I've long thought that Armenian is apparently the real-life language with the names that sound most like stereotypical science-fiction names.

Surely that would have to be Albanian?

Hmm...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_A ... _Americans

Viken Babikian, Peter Balakian, Paul Boghossian, Aram Chobanian, Richard Dekmejian...

Those sound pretty Earthly to me. (Also our former premier: Gladys Berejiklian. In Canada, Raffi Cavoukian was well-known too.)

But compare to:

Ilia Xhokaxhi, Ilir Meta, Ahmet Zogu (a.k.a. King Zog I), Fatos Nano, Rrok Kolë Mirdita, Xhevahir Spahiu…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Albanians

Admittedly, a large part of it is orthographic — ‘xh’ would make any language look decidedly odd. But I can’t say I’d bat an eyelid to see a random 50s SF story where our hero Xhoxhaki and his sidekicks Meta and Nano defeat the Galactic King Zog and his evil henchman Rrok.

(To be clear, this is not meant to be any kind of slur on Albanian names. It is a slur on 50s SF.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 9:49 am lia Xhokaxhi, Ilir Meta, Ahmet Zogu (a.k.a. King Zog I), Fatos Nano, Rrok Kolë Mirdita, Xhevahir Spahiu…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lists_of_Albanians

Admittedly, a large part of it is orthographic — ‘xh’ would make any language look decidedly odd. But I can’t say I’d bat an eyelid to see a random 50s SF story where our hero Xhoxhaki and his sidekicks Meta and Nano defeat the Galactic King Zog and his evil henchman Rrok.

case in point

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:32 am There's no right answer in these things... "Gally" is not terrible, and according to the translator's note the Japanese name is intended to sound not very feminine. It's rather unusual, so far as I know, for manga/anime names to be modified quite that much.

Keep in mind that Japanese artists will sometimes choose vaguely English-sounding names for their characters, but write them in katakana, making them hard to recognize. As far as I know, the author really wanted the character to be named "Gally", which became ガリィ in katakana; "Garii" is a direct transcription of the katakana but was never intended to be the character's name.

That reminds me of the first French translation of Dai no Daibouken (The Adventure of Dai): several character names were supposed to sound English-y or Germanic, but the translators missed that, and just transcribed the katakana. So Pop became Poppu, Hadlar became Hadora, Vearn became Ban, Velther became Veruza, and Larhalt became Rafaruto.

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 8:52 am Well, I looked it up, and apparently ‘Alita’ in the original was actually her father’s cat!

Indeed. The guy who saved her used the name of his recently-dead male cat, as a placeholder, until she remembered her actual name. By the time she remembered it, she was used to "Gally" / "Alita".

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:45 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:32 am There's no right answer in these things... "Gally" is not terrible, and according to the translator's note the Japanese name is intended to sound not very feminine. It's rather unusual, so far as I know, for manga/anime names to be modified quite that much.

Keep in mind that Japanese artists will sometimes choose vaguely English-sounding names for their characters, but write them in katakana, making them hard to recognize. As far as I know, the author really wanted the character to be named "Gally", which became ガリィ in katakana; "Garii" is a direct transcription of the katakana but was never intended to be the character's name.

That reminds me of the first French translation of Dai no Daibouken (The Adventure of Dai): several character names were supposed to sound English-y or Germanic, but the translators missed that, and just transcribed the katakana. So Pop became Poppu, Hadlar became Hadora, Vearn became Ban, Velther became Veruza, and Larhalt became Rafaruto.

Then there’s that recent video game, ブレス オブ ザ ワイルド Buresu obu za Wairudo…

Emily wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 6:28 pm case in point

That's hilarious. No wonder he became an evil Stalinist dictator after that humiliation.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Thu Jul 13, 2023 7:45 pm That reminds me of the first French translation of Dai no Daibouken (The Adventure of Dai): several character names were supposed to sound English-y or Germanic, but the translators missed that, and just transcribed the katakana. So Pop became Poppu, Hadlar became Hadora, Vearn became Ban, Velther became Veruza, and Larhalt became Rafaruto.

The translators didn't miss shit. This is cultural malice.

I don't see why. In the 70's and 80's, anime were already popular in France, but translators often tried to erase any trace of Japanese-ness, by giving all characters French or English names. By contrast, using a transliteration of the katakana makes everything look more Japanese. This first translation of the Dai no Daibouken manga was overall terrible: nonsensical dialogues, inconsistent names, bad printing quality; so I suspect incompetence rather than malice.

Hanlon's razor in all its glory.


JAL

What would you think if you'd find the following in a fictional future history of our world?

2246 The last serious armed conflict on Earth ends.

2247 Alternative rock band Edible Shade of Beige releases their most successful song, "Peace on Earth". Every stanza of the song describes a serious problem that hasn't been solved, a major thing that's still wrong with the world, or a blatant injustice that is still going on. The chorus, however, consists of a sarcastic rendition of the lines

But it's peace on Earth, people
it's peace on Earth
so let's all rejoice
'cause there's peace on Earth!

Not my cup of tea when it comes to humour.

How do they know it's the last serious conflict? People (well, some people at least) once thought the fall of the Soviet Union marked the "end of history" only to be proven dead wrong.