Zompist Bboard Again

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:45 pmSo you're just going to keep saying "But I don't believe this thing staring me in the face" and making emoji?

A pig is a pig and a digging is a digging.

Because animals are never named after things they do? There isn't a such thing as an ant-eater or a bird-eating spider or a grasshopper or leafhopper, or a fly, butterfly, or dragonfly, or a skimmer, or a pond skater, or a kingfisher, and so on and so on. You can also doggedly pursue something — or hound somebody, or fish, or pig out... Animal names do also become words for other things, so you could get semantic evolution in either direction.

I guess I should take it as your own personal way of conceding a point.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:30 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:26 pmI would have to ask why you would expect this not to be the case. That a probable internal etymology is not the case certainly requires a higher standard of proof.

I'd rather say "possible" than "probable". Among other things, *prk- 'to dig' is a 0-grade lexeme restricted to a few branches and related to agriculture, therefore most likely not a "native" word, i.e. it doesn't belong to the horse-and-wheel pack of the Kurgan people.

so, because pigs can't pull carts (since when??), you don't believe a Kurgan or slightly-post-Kurgan people could have encountered pigs and boars in the forests of Anatolia, the Middle East, and Europe?

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:45 pmSo you're just going to keep saying "But I don't believe this thing staring me in the face" and making emoji?

A pig is a pig and a digging is a digging.

given that a potatoe is an "earth apple" in multiple languages, why can't a pig be a "digging {thing}" or "to dig" be a "pig {action}" ?

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:57 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:18 pmChance resemblances are quite probable among +2000 lexical items.

isn't that what everyone else has been telling you?

Apparently, not for you (plural) in this case.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:27 amwell if you hate IE scholars so much, why are you going through their isolationist papers for Austronesian reconstructions?

I don't "hate" anybody. I only said most IE scholars will try to find "internal etymologies" instead of looking outside their beloved framework.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:01 pmso, because pigs can't pull carts (since when??), you don't believe a Kurgan or slightly-post-Kurgan people could have encountered pigs and boars in the forests of Anatolia, the Middle East, and Europe?

Actually, we've got at least 2 different protoforms with that meaning: *(w)eper-o- and *kapr-o- (which means 'male goat' in some branches), so there's no "universal" word for 'boar' in IE. On the other hand, *porḱ-o- doesn't mean generically 'pig' but specifically 'piglet/young pig'.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:11 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:01 pmso, because pigs can't pull carts (since when??), you don't believe a Kurgan or slightly-post-Kurgan people could have encountered pigs and boars in the forests of Anatolia, the Middle East, and Europe?

Actually, we've got at least 2 different protoforms with that meaning: *(w)eper-o- and *kapr-o- (which means 'male goat' in some branches), so there's no "universal" word for 'boar' in IE. On the other hand, *porḱ-o- doesn't mean generically 'pig' but specifically 'piglet/young pig'.

and if a word isn't universal, it can't be applicable? given that you have been finding "wanderwords" in individual languages like Nakh, surely that invalidates your own claims as well.

The progression of "rooter, forager" to "pig" to "young pig" strikes me as broadly plausible and unproblematic. Words for animals frequently either broaden (OE docga, ModE dog, Late Latin caballus, French cheval) or narrow (OE hund, ModE hound, cycen to both chicken, a kind of edible bird, and chick, its young), Where, exactly, is the problem requiring this non-native etymon? I would more likely suppose the Austronesian word to be a coincidence when we have a good Indo-European one, again, staring us right in the face.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:04 pm I don't "hate" anybody. I only said most IE scholars will try to find "internal etymologies" instead of looking outside their beloved framework.

Internal derivations, especially very regular ones like an o-grade verbal noun, are more parsimonious than inventing a chain of languages to transport an Austronesian word a continent away.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:11 pm Actually, we've got at least 2 different protoforms with that meaning: *(w)eper-o- and *kapr-o- (which also means 'male goat' in some branches), so there's no "universal" word for 'boar' in IE. On the other hand, *porḱ-o- doesn't mean generically 'pig' but specifically 'piglet/young pig'.

*h₁ep-r- is specifically a wild boar, which are in my understanding somewhat different in appearance and temperament to domesticated pigs. *kápros is "he-goat" in every branch except Hellenic. Just because there's no reconstructible word doesn't mean the ancestral language the reconstruction is trying to recover didn't have one.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:04 pm

Keenir not Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:27 amwell if you hate IE scholars so much, why are you going through their isolationist papers for Austronesian reconstructions?

I don't "hate" anybody. I only said most IE scholars will try to find "internal etymologies" instead of looking outside their beloved framework.

if I lost my car keys yesterday, and today I find them next to my cereal bowls...do I need to then go across the street to search for my car keys?

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:28 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:04 pm

Keenir not Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 11:27 amwell if you hate IE scholars so much, why are you going through their isolationist papers for Austronesian reconstructions?

I don't "hate" anybody. I only said most IE scholars will try to find "internal etymologies" instead of looking outside their beloved framework.

if I lost my car keys yesterday, and today I find them next to my cereal bowls...do I need to then go across the street to search for my car keys?

IMHO, those are wandercarkeys, obviously derived from your neighbour's. If your car keys are next to your cereal bowls, you obviously couldn't have lost them, so IMHO you must've borrowed them.

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:28 pm*h₁ep-r- is specifically a wild boar, which are in my understanding somewhat different in appearance and temperament to domesticated pigs. *kápros is "he-goat" in every branch except Hellenic. Just because there's no reconstructible word doesn't mean the ancestral language the reconstruction is trying to recover didn't have one.

IMHO, *kapr-o- isn't a PIE word.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:28 pmif I lost my car keys yesterday, and today I find them next to my cereal bowls...do I need to then go across the street to search for my car keys?

Sorry, I can't get it.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:25 pm

Ketsuban wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:28 pm*h₁ep-r- is specifically a wild boar, which are in my understanding somewhat different in appearance and temperament to domesticated pigs. *kápros is "he-goat" in every branch except Hellenic. Just because there's no reconstructible word doesn't mean the ancestral language the reconstruction is trying to recover didn't have one.

IMHO, *kapr-o- isn't a PIE word.

then what is it?

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:26 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:28 pmif I lost my car keys yesterday, and today I find them next to my cereal bowls...do I need to then go across the street to search for my car keys?

Sorry, I can't get it.

I confess the analogy was imperfect...I should have tasked my kid with finding my car keys (kid=IE-ists)

and yeah, when i lost my keys, i couldn't even remember what they looked or sounded like {and yes, my keys make a sound when they touch one another}

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:27 pm

IMHO, *kapr-o- isn't a PIE word.

then what is it?

A loanword from one of the substrate languages embedded in IE, probably related to *weper-o-.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:27 pmI would more likely suppose the Austronesian word to be a coincidence when we have a good Indo-European one, again, staring us right in the face.

I disagree.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:36 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:27 pmI would more likely suppose the Austronesian word to be a coincidence when we have a good Indo-European one, again, staring us right in the face.

I disagree.

Emoji aren't evidence.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:57 pmEmoji aren't evidence.

You'll see.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:36 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:27 pmI would more likely suppose the Austronesian word to be a coincidence when we have a good Indo-European one, again, staring us right in the face.

I disagree.

ah, I see -- Rounin Ryuuji is being paid lavishly by those isolationist evildoering IE-ists! why else would you refuse to give proper, civil explanations to Rounin Ryuuji?

and obviously those IE conspirators who are so obscenely wealthy they can afford to pay people to try to shut down random people like you on the internet

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:19 pmah, I see -- Rounin Ryuuji is being paid lavishly by those isolationist evildoering IE-ists! why else would you refuse to give proper, civil explanations to Rounin Ryuuji?

and obviously those IE conspirators who are so obscenely wealthy they can afford to pay people to try to shut down random people like you on the internet

I think you didn't read what I said in my previous posts: there's no way the +2000 lexical items reconstructed for PIE came all from the same language. Period.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:19 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:36 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:27 pmI would more likely suppose the Austronesian word to be a coincidence when we have a good Indo-European one, again, staring us right in the face.

I disagree.

ah, I see -- Rounin Ryuuji is being paid lavishly by those isolationist evildoering IE-ists! why else would you refuse to give proper, civil explanations to Rounin Ryuuji?

and obviously those IE conspirators who are so obscenely wealthy they can afford to pay people to try to shut down random people like you on the internet

Yes, my primary fictitious language being Japonic is merely a ruse! But don't tell — they'd banish me, you know!