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Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:21 pm
by Ahzoh
I'm thinking in terms of constraints AND sound change; these are the language's tonal harmonization rules.
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:22 am
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:03 am
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:00 am I don’t understand; how would these rules convert RHR into RHH?
Because RR or RL > RH rule is first, it takes procedural precedence over HR > LR, but now there's an HR that's illegal, but it can't channge to LR because of preceding R, so well that's the only time HR become HH. And H isn't allowed to turn into F between two Rs.
I’m still confused… there’s no RR in RHR.
I didn't say there's an RR in RHR.

You start with R, then another syllable is L, boom, now it's RH. Now there's another syllable, it's R, but the previous syllable--that used to be L--is now H, but it can't change back into L so now the R following it has to also become H. I don't get how this is so difficult to understand.

It doesn't matter, all you need to know is R becomes H if preceded by RH and it's been difficult to code that.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:28 pm
by bradrn
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 2:21 pm I'm thinking in terms of constraints AND sound change; these are the language's tonal harmonization rules.
This doesn’t really make sense to me. Constraints and sound changes belong to two different linguistic theories; mixing them is a bit confusing.

(Of course, sound changes can be motivated in terms of constraints, but they still need to fully specify when they apply and when they don’t!)
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 6:22 am
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 5:03 am

Because RR or RL > RH rule is first, it takes procedural precedence over HR > LR, but now there's an HR that's illegal, but it can't channge to LR because of preceding R, so well that's the only time HR become HH. And H isn't allowed to turn into F between two Rs.
I’m still confused… there’s no RR in RHR.
I didn't say there's an RR in RHR.
Well, how could a rule RR→RH apply if there’s no RR in the starting point?
It doesn't matter, all you need to know is R becomes H if preceded by RH and it's been difficult to code that.
Can you not do something like:

R/H/R(C)(C)(C)(C)H(C)(C)(C)(C)_

?

(Of course, in my SCA it would be something like R / H / R C* H C* _. But that’s irrelevant for your case.)

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:52 pm
by Ahzoh
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:28 pm Well, how could a rule RR→RH apply if there’s no RR in the starting point?
I said RR or RL > RH, but it doesn't matter cuz the end result is still RH
R/H/R(C)(C)(C)(C)H(C)(C)(C)(C)_
[C C etc.]_ type deals don't seem to work, though _[C C etc.] ones do. Though I never tried brackets, I just assumed they were the same thing: making nonce categories.
I got the tone system dealt with Ossmalic (sort of) but now I'm unsatisfied with/bored of it. It is time to work on Vrkhazhian again.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:08 pm
by bradrn
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:52 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:28 pm Well, how could a rule RR→RH apply if there’s no RR in the starting point?
I said RR or RL > RH, but it doesn't matter cuz the end result is still RH
Well, I see no RL in RHR either…
R/H/R(C)(C)(C)(C)H(C)(C)(C)(C)_
[C C etc.]_ type deals don't seem to work, though _[C C etc.] ones do. Though I never tried brackets, I just assumed they were the same thing: making nonce categories.
The help page says that brackets match things optionally. So (C) can match one consonant or none.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:17 pm
by Ahzoh
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:08 pmWell, I see no RL in RHR either…
Are you trolling me? How, after I explained myself 3 different ways, have you not yet understood the situation?

Of course there's no RL in RHR, that isn't what I was referencing. RHR is the post-result from an earlier RL turning into an RH and then having additional R attached to it and me saying the H in RHR can't revert to L because RLR isn't allowed either, so the final R needs to become H.
1) H+R > LR
2) R+L > RH
But:
3) RH + R > RHH
Instead the code wants to do RH+R > RLR

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:23 pm
by bradrn
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:17 pm RHR is the post-result from an earlier RL turning into an RH
Ah-ha, that’s what I’ve been missing. I thought you meant RHR was the initial form, rather than being an intermediate one.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:24 pm
by Ahzoh
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:23 pm
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:17 pm RHR is the post-result from an earlier RL turning into an RH
Ah-ha, that’s what I’ve been missing. I thought you meant RHR was the initial form, rather than being an intermediate one.
Nay. it's the post-result.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:12 am
by Otto Kretschmer
Any Japonic conlangs out there?

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:39 am
by jal
Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:12 amAny Japonic conlangs out there?
I've seen quite a few, including from members here. So the liteal answer is "yes" :).


JAL

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:20 am
by bradrn
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:24 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:23 pm
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:17 pm RHR is the post-result from an earlier RL turning into an RH
Ah-ha, that’s what I’ve been missing. I thought you meant RHR was the initial form, rather than being an intermediate one.
Nay. it's the post-result.
OK, now I’m thoroughly confused.

Let’s start again, from the beginning:
  • What was the initial (or underlying) tone sequence?
  • What sequence of rules apply to it in order to give RHR?
  • And what rules apply to RHR to give the result you want?

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:24 am
by Ahzoh
bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 5:20 am
Ahzoh wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:24 pm
bradrn wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 11:23 pm

Ah-ha, that’s what I’ve been missing. I thought you meant RHR was the initial form, rather than being an intermediate one.
Nay. it's the post-result.
OK, now I’m thoroughly confused.

Let’s start again, from the beginning:
  • What was the initial (or underlying) tone sequence?
  • What sequence of rules apply to it in order to give RHR?
  • And what rules apply to RHR to give the result you want?
RLR > RHR > RHH

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:00 am
by fusijui
Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:12 am Any Japonic conlangs out there?
In an areal sense, but not a 'genetic' one, yes; the only conlanging I've actually put my hand to in years and years has been a bogolang with long Japanese contact history.

The 21st century fashion seems to be for Korean(ish) over Japanese(oid) conlangs though. (And conscripts, I guess, maybe?)

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:19 am
by linguistcat
fusijui wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:00 am
Otto Kretschmer wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 3:12 am Any Japonic conlangs out there?
In an areal sense, but not a 'genetic' one, yes; the only conlanging I've actually put my hand to in years and years has been a bogolang with long Japanese contact history.

The 21st century fashion seems to be for Korean(ish) over Japanese(oid) conlangs though. (And conscripts, I guess, maybe?)
I have been working on a Japan-lang derived from Old Japanese for a while now. Not that I have much concrete work done, but that's more because I'm a terminal researcher and keep changing my mind about what I want to do.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:50 am
by masako
A language for fairies with modals/verbal markers that indicate whether the speaker was flying and/or how they're flying; quickly, hovering, fluttering, downward, etc.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:45 pm
by Ahzoh
I've put a lot of work on fleshing out the nominal case system, but I still have to figure out what to do with my pronouns and verbal system.

My main goal is that I want pronouns (which exist mainly for emphatic purposes) and pronominal suffixes to have a nominative form and an oblique form. This is what I have so far:

Nominative:

Code: Select all

   SG / PL
1: nV / tV or dV
2: mV
3: tsV > tV or sV
Oblique:

Code: Select all

   SG / PL
1: ?? / ??
2: ??
3: kV
So far I have only come up with nominative and oblique forms for the first persons:
NOM: ā-n- and ā-d- > ān-am and ād-am
OBL: na-ğ- and da-ğ- > nāy- and dāy- (e.g. nāy-as [ACC] and nāy-an [INS])
possessive/oblique suffixes: -(n)na and -(t)ta

There is also the matter of the case system. Before Vrkhazhian had grammatical cases, its ancestor had a basic noun class system (NAN = neuter animate, NIN = neuter inanimate):

Code: Select all

      SG  / PL
FEM:  -u  / -u-n or -u-h
MASC: -i  / -i-n or -i-h
NAN:  -ar / -a-n or -a-h
NIN:  -aš / -a-n or -a-h
This system is older and thus probably still manifests in the pronouns, especially for the neuter genders. But then Vrkhazhian or its ancestor developed a case system based on a tripartite alignment:

Code: Select all

INTR: -m(V)
AGT:  -n(V)
PAT:  -š(V)
GEN:  -ḫ(V)
The system quickly devolved into a split between animate nouns taking nominative-accusative alignment (-m and -š) and inanimate nouns taking ergative-absolutive alignment (-n and -š).

For the common genders it was simply a matter of affixing the cases without any additional modifications, but for the neuter genders, it required reanalyzing the noun class markers as simply -a and so the animacy distinction exists only by what nouns possess what cases/alignment.

As for pronouns, this didn't happen or wasn't necessary as inanimates are represented/emphasized solely with demonstrative pronouns while animates use the extant 3rd and 2nd pronouns. Thus the noun class markers in pronouns should be -u, -i, and -ar. Although that does leave the issue of how to denote if the doer of the action is an inanimate noun such as "the pillar fell on the mouse". Perhaps then, at least for oblique person markers the -aš morpheme also exists.
With all that I don't know what to do about the second and third persons. I don't know if the second persons should have unique oblique morphemes just like the third persons do or if they should have derived oblique stems like the first persons do.

On top of that I want to/have to make the pronouns look emphatic enough and not just be "suffixes but free", I want them to look distinct from the verbal agreement/possessive suffixes which are supposed to be noticeably phonetically reduced in form as befits their role as affixes.

At the same time, they should interact with the nominal class-case system, although the pronouns and noun classes are older, so they need not behave like normal nouns or maybe it explains why the pronouns have oblique forms.

I also have misgivings over the possibility of having the second person having forms like ā-m-um/ā-m-im/ā-m-un-am/ā-m-in-am and māy-uš/māy-iš/māy-un-aš/māy-in-aš.

Anyone got ideas I possibly haven't thought of?

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2024 5:43 am
by Glenn
masako wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:50 am A language for fairies with modals/verbal markers that indicate whether the speaker was flying and/or how they're flying; quickly, hovering, fluttering, downward, etc.
I like this! I have seen people create conlangs for flying creatures that paid close attention to representing three-dimensional movement in flight, but not so much the manner of flight (e,g,, hovering). I could see vocabulary distinguishing "fluttering," "flapping with strong wingstrokes," etc.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Thu Feb 15, 2024 12:31 pm
by fusijui
linguistcat wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 10:19 am I have been working on a Japan-lang derived from Old Japanese for a while now. Not that I have much concrete work done, but that's more because I'm a terminal researcher and keep changing my mind about what I want to do.
That has been my story too, for a long time now.

I don't think it's really (or simply) a matter of being older, and more tired or short on time. I think it's just more the accumulation of stuff in my head, not like facts and ideas so much as experiences and memories of what I've done before, that clogs up the motors.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2024 11:43 am
by Ahzoh
I've been having a lot of trouble figuring out my verbal morphology. The fact that Vrkhazhian has four noun classes also makes it more difficult because now I have to overhaul the person-agreement markers. Like, it used to be simple to just have:

Code: Select all

1cs: -na
2fs: -mu
2ms: -mi
3fs: -tu
3ms: -ti

1cp: -ta
2fp: -mun
2mp: -min
3fp: -tun
3mp: -tin
But I have more than two grammatical genders so I have to either include all the distinctions which ends up making the system clunky and makes more work for me to harmonize them or making less distinctions and the system ends up feeling very samey and uninteresting.

I've also thought to just keep the old system and add new morphemes for the neuters, but it wouldn't make sense given the language's diachronics.

on top of all that, I still have to figure out how to go about these planned goals:
  • root-internal tense-mood: realis/non-future and irrealis/future
  • root-external tense-mood: "indefinite" (epistemic) future, "definite" (deontic) future, subjunctive, optative, counterfactual,
  • root-internal voice: active and mediopassive
  • root-external voice: instrumental-causative, dative-benefactive, and malefactive

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:09 am
by masako
Klingon Alphasyllabary

This script was inspired by research conducted in preparation for the Kopikon Conlang Conference held on September 23rd, 2023. During the development of my presentation on ‘How to make a good script’ I was studying the Ithkuil script made by John Quijada. During this study, I began to notice the possibility of it being used as an alphasyllabary for the Klingon conlang, both due to its aesthetics, as well as the formation of the shapes and how they might fit together in a Hangul-like script. What follows is the subsequent script.

Serendipitously, and with some irony, John Quijada, during his presentation at Kopikon (after I had begun work on this project), mentioned that the aesthetic origins of his initial script for Ithkuil were based on the Klinzhai script from earlier in Trek lore.

Re: Conlang Random Thread

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2024 2:00 am
by jal
masako wrote: ↑Mon Mar 04, 2024 11:09 amKlingon Alphasyllabary
Nice!


JAL
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