Zompist Bboard Again

Posted: **Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:49 pm**

Vijay wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:19 pm Yawa? Yareba? Coastal Marind? Meriam Mir?

None of those, sorry. (Though I’ve been looking for a good Marind grammar for a while; please tell me if you’ve managed to find one!) At this point I’m beginning to suspect that this language isn’t Papuan, if indeed I am remembering it correctly at all.

One interesting thing though: while looking for a Yareba grammar, I discovered that Donohue’s sketch of Waremboni has some really useful notes throughout on how to write a grammar sketch; I definitely recommend at least looking through it. (Can’t find a link, but it’s in the Grammar Pile.)

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:36 pm**

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Apr 10, 2021 9:49 pmThough I’ve been looking for a good Marind grammar for a while; please tell me if you’ve managed to find one!

I haven't, sorry!

Random language question: In Spanish, are fiel and fuerte borrowed from Latin?

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 3:52 pm**

Wiktionary says so.

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:27 pm**

Does it specifically say they were borrowed from Latin? I thought it just said that they come from Latin (but then so does the language in general...).

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:53 pm**

In fact, they both use the template {{inh}} which stands for "inherited".

I guess the reason you're curious is the retention of /f/. In the case of fiel, this is considered due to influence from Ecclesiastical Latin. (In other words, it's what's known to Spanish linguists as a semi-learned borrowing or semicultismo.) With fuerte, there seems to be a more general pattern of retention of /f/ before /w/. (Compare the development of Old Japanese *p.) John Penny goes into detail on this in his History of the Spanish language.

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:56 pm**

Oh okay, thanks! I saw Kuchigakatai say something about /h/ being lost, thought "don't you mean /f/?" looked up Old Spanish, and got confused by those two examples.

Posted: **Sun Apr 11, 2021 7:45 pm**

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:56 pmOh okay, thanks! I saw Kuchigakatai say something about /h/ being lost, thought "don't you mean /f/?" looked up Old Spanish, and got confused by those two examples.

Oh, I meant, late Old and early modern Spanish /h/. There was a while in which words spelled like <fiio> 'son' and pronounced /ˈɸiʒo/ [ˈhiʒo] (maybe even [ˈɸiʒo]) in the 13th century came to be spelled <hiio> and pronounced /ˈhiʃo/ [ˈhiʃo] by the 15th century, with a /h/ [h] that contrasted with the /f/ [f] that came from earlier inherited /ɸw ɸr/ (fuerte, frío, maybe pronounced [fw] or [ɸw]?) and sometimes /ɸj/ (fiera, but see Latin fel > hiel), possibly usually semi-learned /ɸl/ (flor, flaco), and latinisms, gallicisms or occitanisms with <f> (fácil, flecha, fraile; likely also the /f/ [f] of fe/fiel, but see the related fidāre > fiar).

Basically, although 13th-century Castilian may have possibly mostly had /ɸ/ [ɸ ~ h], with a marginal learned /f/ [f] in latinisms, gallicisms or occitanisms, this /ɸ/ became /h/ [h] soon enough when followed by a vowel while at the same time there was huge influx of words from Latin or French that produced a well-cemented new /f/ phoneme, partly fed by the old /ɸ/ when followed by a consonant.

Posted: **Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:31 pm**

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:27 pm Does it specifically say they were borrowed from Latin? I thought it just said that they come from Latin (but then so does the language in general...).

My bad, I misread the question.

Posted: **Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:35 pm**

Zju wrote: ↑Mon Apr 12, 2021 12:31 pm
Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Apr 11, 2021 4:27 pm Does it specifically say they were borrowed from Latin? I thought it just said that they come from Latin (but then so does the language in general...).
My bad, I misread the question.

No worries!

Posted: **Wed Apr 14, 2021 10:20 pm**

A little ambiguity in Japanese syntax role marking, involving ga as a focus particle...

The understood object [of verbs in the desiderative] can be marked either by ga or o, although there is a slight difference in meaning. Compare the two sentences below:

Rāmen o tabetai desu.
I want to eat ramen noodles.

Rāmen ga tabetai desu.
I want to eat ramen noodles.

The first sentence with o is stating what one wants to do, while the second sentence with ga is stating what one wants to eat.

The person doing the desiring will be either the topic with the particle wa or the emphasized subject with the particle ga, depending on the specific emphasis. This sometimes leads to ambiguity. Tanaka-san wa Nakamura-san ga yobitai desu can mean either ‘Mr. Tanaka wants to invite MR. NAKAMURA’ or ‘MR. NAKAMURA wants to invite Mr. Tanaka,’ since all it tells literally is ‘With Mr. Tanaka for the topic and the emphasis on Mr. Nakamura, somebody wants to invite somebody.’

This ambiguity parallels that of Tarō wa Hanako ga suki desu (‘With Taro for the subject and the emphasis on Hanako, somebody is liked by somebody’), which can mean either ‘Taro likes HANAKO’ or ‘HANAKO likes Taro.’ Such ambiguities are straightened out, of course, by the situation and the context.

(Source: Samuel Martin and Eriko Sato's Basic Japanese, page 206-207.)

Posted: **Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:16 am**

Just realized I sometimes have [k'] for unstressed 'because'.

Posted: **Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:22 am**

dɮ the phoneme wrote: ↑Thu Apr 15, 2021 1:16 am Just realized I sometimes have [k'] for unstressed 'because'.

I don’t think that’s particularly uncommon — I’ve noticed that I often have an ejective in back [bæˀk̚~bækʼ].

Posted: **Thu Apr 15, 2021 12:49 pm**

I don't think it's all that odd to have ejectives for final fortis plosives in English.

Posted: **Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:37 pm**

TIL that in English, "Mallorca" is sometimes spelled "Majorca". I would never have guessed that.

Posted: **Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:49 pm**

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:37 pm TIL that in English, "Mallorca" is sometimes spelled "Majorca". I would never have guessed that.

We like using Frenchified forms of Continental place names for some reason. I remember being taken aback when I lived in Freiburg to hear the British student’s refer to a place called “Bale”. But I myself talked about “Frankfort” and “Cologne”.

Posted: **Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:57 pm**

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:49 pm We like using Frenchified forms of Continental place names for some reason.

Because France is, for better or worse, the part of Continental Europe that Britain has historically had the most contact with?

Posted: **Thu Apr 22, 2021 3:37 pm**

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:57 pm
Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:49 pm We like using Frenchified forms of Continental place names for some reason.
Because France is, for better or worse, the part of Continental Europe that Britain has historically had the most contact with?

I assume so.

I also think the Peninsular War might play a role here but that's just a guess.

Posted: **Thu Apr 22, 2021 10:42 pm**

Where they didn't get Relatinised (for Prussia and Russia, Chaucer uses Pruce and Ruce, I believe), I think most of them were borrowed through Norman, probably because Norman was once the language of the classes who would've talked about such places.

Posted: **Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:39 pm**

Linguoboy wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:49 pm
Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:37 pm TIL that in English, "Mallorca" is sometimes spelled "Majorca". I would never have guessed that.
We like using Frenchified forms of Continental place names for some reason. I remember being taken aback when I lived in Freiburg to hear the British student’s refer to a place called “Bale”. But I myself talked about “Frankfort” and “Cologne”.

Frankfort always came off to me as a bit archaic (I am used to Frankfurt in contemporary English), but Cologne is very much standard English to this day. No one speaks of "Köln" in English.

Posted: **Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:41 pm**

Raphael wrote: ↑Thu Apr 22, 2021 1:37 pm TIL that in English, "Mallorca" is sometimes spelled "Majorca". I would never have guessed that.

It's not "sometimes" - the standard English name of Mallorca is Majorca.

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