Zompist Bboard Again

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:38 am

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:47 am Maybe English does not like initial /ts/?

It doesn't -- but why not loan it as /s/ then? For instance, Japanese tsunami is commonly pronounced with initial /s/ here.

I've always understood the situation as ⟨z⟩ having two main pronunciations: /z/ mostly, and /ts/ in some loanwords. As initial /ts/ is banned, the only option left is /z/, which is then used. /s/ and /z/ are also close enough that someone with access to the spelling, but not knowing German would assume they misheard the initial sound as a /z/ and correct¹ it to /s/.

¹ I don't thing this fits the definition of hypercorrection, but it is am overcorrection of some kind

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:38 am

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:47 am Maybe English does not like initial /ts/?

It doesn't -- but why not loan it as /s/ then? For instance, Japanese tsunami is commonly pronounced with initial /s/ here.

On the other hand tsar is sometimes pronounced with /z/. This may have something to do with the alternative spelling with cz but it is still curious.

anteallach wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 1:00 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:38 am

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:47 am Maybe English does not like initial /ts/?

It doesn't -- but why not loan it as /s/ then? For instance, Japanese tsunami is commonly pronounced with initial /s/ here.

On the other hand tsar is sometimes pronounced with /z/. This may have something to do with the alternative spelling with cz but it is still curious.

Yes; note that I suspect it has something to do with a bad spelling pronunciation of czar.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:38 am

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:47 am Maybe English does not like initial /ts/?

It doesn't -- but why not loan it as /s/ then? For instance, Japanese tsunami is commonly pronounced with initial /s/ here.

Maybe it's kind of like a hyperforeignism? So, you want to map initial <z> to something that sounds foreign - and initial /ts/ is dispreferred - so you map it to /z/ instead. Kind of like habanero being pronounced with /nj/ to make it sound 'foreign enough'. Initial /s/ is very frequent in native English, right? So you want to avoid that in 'exotic' words.
And you couldn't do that with <tsunami> because - apart from tsar - you never map <ts> to /z/.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:47 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:38 am

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:47 am Maybe English does not like initial /ts/?

It doesn't -- but why not loan it as /s/ then? For instance, Japanese tsunami is commonly pronounced with initial /s/ here.

Maybe it's kind of like a hyperforeignism? So, you want to map initial <z> to something that sounds foreign - and initial /ts/ is dispreferred - so you map it to /z/ instead. Kind of like habanero being pronounced with /nj/ to make it sound 'foreign enough'. Initial /s/ is very frequent in native English, right? So you want to avoid that in 'exotic' words.
And you couldn't do that with <tsunami> because - apart from tsar - you never map <ts> to /z/.

I don't think /z/ for German initial ⟨z⟩ is a hyperforeignism; if anything, on second thought, it's probably interference from English orthography (kind of like how German ⟨a⟩ can be any of /ɑ æ eɪ/ depending on whether it is an open syllable or not and how nativized it is).

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 7:48 pm

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 5:47 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 10:38 am It doesn't -- but why not loan it as /s/ then? For instance, Japanese tsunami is commonly pronounced with initial /s/ here.

Maybe it's kind of like a hyperforeignism? So, you want to map initial <z> to something that sounds foreign - and initial /ts/ is dispreferred - so you map it to /z/ instead. Kind of like habanero being pronounced with /nj/ to make it sound 'foreign enough'. Initial /s/ is very frequent in native English, right? So you want to avoid that in 'exotic' words.
And you couldn't do that with <tsunami> because - apart from tsar - you never map <ts> to /z/.

I don't think /z/ for German initial ⟨z⟩ is a hyperforeignism; if anything, on second thought, it's probably interference from English orthography (kind of like how German ⟨a⟩ can be any of /ɑ æ eɪ/ depending on whether it is an open syllable or not and how nativized it is).

That's definitely another factor obviously.

Does anyone know how and why "Pferd" came to replace "Ross" as the most common German word for "horse"?

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:28 am This is less a German question but a German-loans-in-English question, but one thing I have noticed is that German initial ⟨z⟩ is commonly loaned into English here as /z/ but German medial and final ⟨z⟩ (e.g. Nazi, Mozart, countless other German names) is typically loaned into English here as /ts/, making this not a simple matter of pure spelling pronunciation. Any idea why this is so?

I missed this discussion, but I'm not sure about the generalization. Merriam-Webster thinks that zugzwang and zeitgeist are pronounced (in English) with initial /ts/; Wiktionary says /z/. They're the opposite on panzer: MW prefers /z/, Wiktionary /ts/.

I don't know if it's still true, but in WWII itself Americans said /na tsi/, British said /na zi/.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 6:00 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Apr 28, 2025 9:28 am This is less a German question but a German-loans-in-English question, but one thing I have noticed is that German initial ⟨z⟩ is commonly loaned into English here as /z/ but German medial and final ⟨z⟩ (e.g. Nazi, Mozart, countless other German names) is typically loaned into English here as /ts/, making this not a simple matter of pure spelling pronunciation. Any idea why this is so?

I missed this discussion, but I'm not sure about the generalization. Merriam-Webster thinks that zugzwang and zeitgeist are pronounced (in English) with initial /ts/; Wiktionary says /z/. They're the opposite on panzer: MW prefers /z/, Wiktionary /ts/.

I don't know if it's still true, but in WWII itself Americans said /na tsi/, British said /na zi/.

Panzer is an exception for me as I have /z/ in this word.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 6:00 pm I don't know if it's still true, but in WWII itself Americans said /na tsi/, British said /na zi/.

No, the vowels were long in British English.

By my time, the more usual British English was /ˈna:t si:/, with optional stress on thesecond syllable and lack of it causing idiolect-dependent vowel neutralisation. Churchill's pronunciation with /z/ came as a surprise to me.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 3:17 pm Does anyone know how and why "Pferd" came to replace "Ross" as the most common German word for "horse"?

That's a good and surprisingly difficult question, which led me down a rabbit hole of equine etymology without me finding an answer. The following is my own guesswork, so take it for what it is worth.

First of all, I was surprised to learn that Pferd comes from Latin paraveredus, "spare horse, small horse for out-of-the-way places" - the word has always sounded so stereotypically Germanic to me!

According to EWdD, Pferd won out in written language first, perhaps suggesting that it was a case of the Latin-derived word being more prestigious. However, the complete opposite could also be the case, since (a) paraveredus seems to have referred to a small, hardy horse that might have been more familiar to "ordinary people", and (b) Ross seems to be taken as the "fancy" term today.

As a fun fact, Ross still flies here in Switzerland, though it seems the diminutive Rössli by now mostly refers to a countryside inn...

Flau wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 4:42 am

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 3:17 pm Does anyone know how and why "Pferd" came to replace "Ross" as the most common German word for "horse"?

That's a good and surprisingly difficult question, which led me down a rabbit hole of equine etymology without me finding an answer.

Well, sorry that I caused you so much work, and thank you for doing that work!

As a fun fact, Ross still flies here in Switzerland, though it seems the diminutive Rössli by now mostly refers to a countryside inn...

Interesting!

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 5:20 am Well, sorry that I caused you so much work, and thank you for doing that work!

Not at all, I had fun doing it, so no problem And glad you found it interesting too!

zompist wrote: ↑Sat May 17, 2025 6:00 pm Merriam-Webster thinks that zugzwang and zeitgeist are pronounced (in English) with initial /ts/

I've never heard this.

Chess terms in general are often pronounced how they're spelled - even Daniel Naroditsky often pronounces the Pirc Defense (named after the Slovene grandmaster Vasja Pirc) [pɝk] instead of the prescriptively correct [piɹts].

Flau wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 4:42 am First of all, I was surprised to learn that Pferd comes from Latin paraveredus, "spare horse, small horse for out-of-the-way places" - the word has always sounded so stereotypically Germanic to me!

most german words that start with pf are ultimately borrowed from other sources, as any such inherited words would have to descend from PIE *b, which was marginal or nonexistent

Emily wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 6:56 am most german words that start with pf are ultimately borrowed from other sources, as any such inherited words would have to descend from PIE *b, which was marginal or nonexistent

That's interesting - thanks!

Flau wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 4:42 am According to EWdD, Pferd won out in written language first, perhaps suggesting that it was a case of the Latin-derived word being more prestigious. However, the complete opposite could also be the case, since (a) paraveredus seems to have referred to a small, hardy horse that might have been more familiar to "ordinary people", and (b) Ross seems to be taken as the "fancy" term today.

It doesn't say the word won out in the literary language "first" in the dictinary entry, it just says

In der Literatursprache hat sich Pferd allgemein durchgesetzt, während die germ. Bezeichnungen Gaul, Mähre, Roß eine semantische Eigenentwicklung erfahren bzw. auf landschaftlichen Gebrauch beschränkt werden
In literary language, the word “horse” has generally prevailed, while the Germanic terms “gaul”, “mähre”, “roß” have undergone a semantic development of their own or have been restricted to regional use.

I also doubt that the speakers were aware of the Latin origin.
One reason for Pferd winning out probably is that it's the word Luther uses in his Bible translation.

hwhatting wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 10:06 am It doesn't say the word won out in the literary language "first" in the dictinary entry, (...) I also doubt that the speakers were aware of the Latin origin.

You're right, I may have over-/misinterpreted that, and overlooked the time depth between the borrowing and the shift in usage happening. Thanks for clarifying!

hwhatting wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 10:06 am
One reason for Pferd winning out probably is that it's the word Luther uses in his Bible translation.

Given the importance of Bible translations all over Europe, that's probably a better explanation.

Emily wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 6:56 am

Flau wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 4:42 am First of all, I was surprised to learn that Pferd comes from Latin paraveredus, "spare horse, small horse for out-of-the-way places" - the word has always sounded so stereotypically Germanic to me!

most german words that start with pf are ultimately borrowed from other sources, as any such inherited words would have to descend from PIE *b, which was marginal or nonexistent

It's also good for dating loans, because the loans would have to be early enough to have undergone the High German Consonant Shift ─ contrast with, say, Partei, which lacks this shift.

Emily wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 6:56 am

Flau wrote: ↑Sun May 18, 2025 4:42 am First of all, I was surprised to learn that Pferd comes from Latin paraveredus, "spare horse, small horse for out-of-the-way places" - the word has always sounded so stereotypically Germanic to me!

most german words that start with pf are ultimately borrowed from other sources, as any such inherited words would have to descend from PIE *b, which was marginal or nonexistent

procrastinating on packing things up for a move, so i looked up german lemmas on wiktionary starting with pf-, and when you ignore place names (and derivations from the below) this is what you get:

• borrowed from latin: Pfahl, Pfalz, Pfanne, Pfarrer, Pfau, Pfeffer, Pfeife, Pfeil, Pferd, Pfingsten, Pfirsich, Pflanze, Pflaster, Pflaume, pflücken, Pforte, Pfosten, Pfropfen, Pfründe, Pfund, Pfühl, Pfütze
• borrowed from greek: Pfaffe (some of the latin borrowings above were also greek borrowings into latin)
• borrowed from czech: Pfrnak
• probably borrowed from celtic: Pfad (or possibly from iranian), Pflug
• unclear etymology but possibly inherited from PIE: pfauchen (could be from a PIE root *bew- or from *(s)ptyew-), Pfuhl (alternatively may be a substrate borrowing), Pfriem
• unclear etymology but likely from latin: Pferch (or from earlier sparro), Pfennig, Pfand
• altered from earlier f-: Pfurz
• imitative: pfuschen (possibly), pfui
• etymology unclear: Pflege, Pflicht, Pfote, Pflock, Pfuchahn
• no etymology listed: pfiat di