Zompist Bboard Again

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:38 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:19 pm

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 4:36 pm I disagree.

ah, I see -- Rounin Ryuuji is being paid lavishly by those isolationist evildoering IE-ists! why else would you refuse to give proper, civil explanations to Rounin Ryuuji?

and obviously those IE conspirators who are so obscenely wealthy they can afford to pay people to try to shut down random people like you on the internet

Yes, my primary fictitious language being Japonic is merely a ruse! But don't tell — they'd banish me, you know!

Oh. I thought Japonic was...whats the opposite of a ruse? I just thought they had you in their employ so as to deploy you on the off chance that anyone tried to reveal the truth of the matter.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:23 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:19 pmah, I see -- Rounin Ryuuji is being paid lavishly by those isolationist evildoering IE-ists! why else would you refuse to give proper, civil explanations to Rounin Ryuuji?

and obviously those IE conspirators who are so obscenely wealthy they can afford to pay people to try to shut down random people like you on the internet

I think you didn't read what I said in my previous posts: there's no way the +2000 lexical items reconstructed for PIE came all from the same language. Period.

of course I read what you said in your previous posts...about the isolationist IE-ists, about how they control what is and isn't accepted, etc.

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 7:16 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 6:38 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 5:19 pm

ah, I see -- Rounin Ryuuji is being paid lavishly by those isolationist evildoering IE-ists! why else would you refuse to give proper, civil explanations to Rounin Ryuuji?

and obviously those IE conspirators who are so obscenely wealthy they can afford to pay people to try to shut down random people like you on the internet

Yes, my primary fictitious language being Japonic is merely a ruse! But don't tell — they'd banish me, you know!

Oh. I thought Japonic was...whats the opposite of a ruse? I just thought they had you in their employ so as to deploy you on the off chance that anyone tried to reveal the truth of the matter.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I am UNMASKED! My fondness for Japonic is entirely SINCERE!

I'm melting! MELTING! Oh, what a world! WHAT A WORLD!

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:48 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:45 pmSo you're just going to keep saying "But I don't believe this thing staring me in the face" and making emoji?

A pig is a pig and a digging is a digging.

We've been over this before - there's good semantic backing for that etymology. See here and here.

The thing about Wanderwörter is that they tend to diffuse through all languages between their source and target: e.g. reflexes of Proto-TNG *mugu can be found in TNG, Austronesian, Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, Sino-Tibetan, Kusunda, Austroasiatic, Afroasiatic and Niger-Congo (source), getting closer and closer phonetically to Latin musa as it diffuses. I would never accept that etymology without this sort of overwhelming evidence. Do you have a similar amount of evidence for *beRek→*porḱ-o? (And in fact I find the extent of phonetic similarity extremely suspicious, given the lack of obvious correspondences in *mugu→musa.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:06 pm The thing about Wanderwörter is that they tend to diffuse through all languages between their source and target: e.g. reflexes of Proto-TNG *mugu can be found in TNG, Austronesian, Dravidian, Indo-Aryan, Sino-Tibetan, Kusunda, Austroasiatic, Afroasiatic and Niger-Congo (source), getting closer and closer phonetically to Latin musa as it diffuses. I would never accept that etymology without this sort of overwhelming evidence. Do you have a similar amount of evidence for *beRek→*porḱ-o? (And in fact I find the extent of phonetic similarity extremely suspicious, given the lack of obvious correspondences in *mugu→musa.)

Old Chinese *pˤra "pig"
Tibetan phag "pig" (which may or may not have been loaned into Rgyalrongic - see e.g. Situ pak and Tangut 1va1 with initial lenition and vowel retraction from an unknown source)

Wiktionary adds Proto-Kuki-Chin *wok and Proto-Bodo-Garo *bwak.

Archi боӏкь
Budukh and Lezgi вак
Udi боъкъ
I don't know whether these correspondences are regular.

But this is probably a coincidence. Apparently there's also Proto-Polynesian *puaka 'pig' - is its PAn etymology known? If so, that could be an alternate source for the Sino-Tibetan forms, although the -r- in OC would still have to be explained.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:28 pm But this is probably a coincidence.

What makes you say that?

bradrn wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:42 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 9:28 pm But this is probably a coincidence.

What makes you say that?

There aren't enough other intermediates to make it clearly a Wanderwort (PST is far from NEC), it's short enough and matching is loose enough that some coincidences would be expected, and the PIE internal etymology is convincing.

Then again, I didn't look very hard.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:34 pmThere aren't enough other intermediates to make it clearly a Wanderwort (PST is far from NEC), it's short enough and matching is loose enough that some coincidences would be expected, and the PIE internal etymology is convincing.

I think on the contrary, the "PIE internal etymology" is likely a chance resemblance.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 12:45 am

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:34 pmThere aren't enough other intermediates to make it clearly a Wanderwort (PST is far from NEC), it's short enough and matching is loose enough that some coincidences would be expected, and the PIE internal etymology is convincing.

I think on the contrary, the "PIE internal etymology" is likely a chance resemblance.

and this is based upon...?

{please provide an answer that doesn't have "IE-ist" or variant thereof in it}

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:36 am

I think on the contrary, the "PIE internal etymology" is likely a chance resemblance.

and this is based upon...?

First of all, the purported protoform **perḱ- 'to dig' isn't attested as such but only as noun derivatives from a 0-grade *prḱ-, namely Latin porca 'ridge between two furrows'. Secondly, it looks like a NW regional word related to agriculture, so most likely a substrate loanword.

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:36 am{please provide an answer that doesn't have "IE-ist" or variant thereof in it}

This was reflexion of mine, not a real point.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:36 am

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:36 am

I think on the contrary, the "PIE internal etymology" is likely a chance resemblance.

and this is based upon...?

First of all, the purported protoform **perḱ- 'to dig' isn't attested as such but only as noun derivatives from a 0-grade *prḱ-, namely Latin porca 'ridge between two furrows'.

sounds like pig action to me.

Secondly, it looks like a NW regional word related to agriculture,

which is...? {read: which word??}

so most likely a substrate loanword.

Wow, I'd heard rumors that the Piraha could keep their words unchanging for 400 years...how did the NW people manage to keep this word (and perhaps others) unchanging from an age before Latin, all the way to the modern day when & where we can record the word(s) as being proper NW ?

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:49 am

so most likely a substrate loanword.

Wow, I'd heard rumors that the Piraha could keep their words unchanging for 400 years...how did the NW people manage to keep this word (and perhaps others) unchanging from an age before Latin, all the way to the modern day when & where we can record the word(s) as being proper NW ?

FYI, there're more words relative to agriculture such as Latin carpō ~ English harvest, German Herbst playing in the same league.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:56 am

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:49 am

so most likely a substrate loanword.

Wow, I'd heard rumors that the Piraha could keep their words unchanging for 400 years...how did the NW people manage to keep this word (and perhaps others) unchanging from an age before Latin, all the way to the modern day when & where we can record the word(s) as being proper NW ?

FYI, there're more words relative to agriculture such as Latin carpō ~ English harvest, German Herbst playing in the same league.

You dodged a question again, should we assume you can't answer it?

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:49 am

Secondly, it looks like a NW regional word related to agriculture,

which is...? {read: which word??}

I think Talskubilos meant that **perḱ- looks like it’s a NW regional word.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:36 am

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:36 amand this is based upon...?

First of all, the purported protoform **perḱ- 'to dig' isn't attested as such but only as noun derivatives from a 0-grade *prḱ-, namely Latin porca 'ridge between two furrows'.

sounds like pig action to me.

so most likely a substrate loanword.

Wow, I'd heard rumors that the Piraha could keep their words unchanging for 400 years...how did the NW people manage to keep this word (and perhaps others) unchanging from an age before Latin, all the way to the modern day when & where we can record the word(s) as being proper NW ?

I don’t even have a clue what you’re trying to say here.

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:32 amI think Talskubilos meant that **perḱ- looks like it’s a NW regional word.

That's right, but this is a bad reconstruction, because this lexeme is only attested as *prḱ- in nouns derivated from it. Correct me if I wrong, but there's no such verb **perḱ- 'to dig' in IE.

Zju wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:31 amYou dodged a question again, should we assume you can't answer it?

Mallory & Adams (2006) define "NW regional words" as the ones found in any two or more of Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Slavic and Baltic, but not in Anatolian, Indo-Iranian, Greek, Armeanian, Tocharian or Albanian. See Koch's (2020): Celto-Germanic. Later Prehistory and Post-Proto-Indo-European vocabulary in the North and West.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 7:45 am

Zju wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:31 amYou dodged a question again, should we assume you can't answer it?

Mallory & Adams (2006) define "NW regional words" as the ones found in any two or more of Celtic, Italic, Germanic, Slavic and Baltic, but not in Anatolian, Indo-Iranian, Greek, Armeanian, Tocharian or Albanian. See Koch's (2020): Celto-Germanic. Later Prehistory and Post-Proto-Indo-European vocabulary in the North and West.

That's a neat definition you got there that ignores the first and more important part of the question:

[H]ow did the NW people manage to keep this word (and perhaps others) unchanging from an age before Latin, all the way to the modern day[?]

Zju wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:24 amThat's a neat definition you got there that ignores the first and more important part of the question:

[H]ow did the NW people manage to keep this word (and perhaps others) unchanging from an age before Latin, all the way to the modern day[?]

I don't understand the point.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:34 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:32 amI think Talskubilos meant that **perḱ- looks like it’s a NW regional word.

That's right, but this is a bad reconstruction, because this lexeme is only attested as *prḱ- in nouns derivated from it. Correct me if I wrong, but there's no such verb **perḱ- 'to dig' in IE.

Sanskrit parśāna 'precipice' would derive from an o-grade *porḱ-, but still there're no verb attestations.

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 4:36 am

keenir wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 1:36 am

I think on the contrary, the "PIE internal etymology" is likely a chance resemblance.

and this is based upon...?

First of all, the purported protoform **perḱ- 'to dig' isn't attested as such but only as noun derivatives from a 0-grade *prḱ-, namely Latin porca 'ridge between two furrows'. Secondly, it looks like a NW regional word related to agriculture, so most likely a substrate loanword.

are you sure

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 8:39 am

Talskubilos wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 6:34 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Sat Sep 04, 2021 5:32 amI think Talskubilos meant that **perḱ- looks like it’s a NW regional word.

That's right, but this is a bad reconstruction, because this lexeme is only attested as *prḱ- in nouns derivated from it. Correct me if I wrong, but there's no such verb **perḱ- 'to dig' in IE.

Sanskrit parśāna 'precipice' would derive from an o-grade *porḱ-, but still there're no verb attestations.

The "paper" in "paper wasp" (to name the animal I saw most recently) isn't a verb either.