Zompist Bboard Again

Thank you!

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 20, 2023 1:09 pm Serious question: How do ant colonies manage it to survive serious major downpours? Shouldn't they all drown whenever there's one of those?

Less serious question: Why did I never wonder about this until today?

Most of this is from glancing through Hölldobler and Wilson's the Ants:

Mostly, they evacuate the nest, or at least the brood, the food and the queens. Rain triggers the flood evacuation response, basically alarm chemicals that signal evacuation. The neat thing about social insects is that very simple signals trigger pretty complex behavior.
Some species mobilize a sufficient number of workers in 30 seconds; some react to as little a stimulus as a drop of water.
Some tropical species form living rafts -- a floating mass of insects, with the queen or queens and brood at the center.
Many of the ants do die, but as long as they saved some of the queens and brood, no big deal.
Some ant species are adapted to regular nest flooding. This includes what the book names 'dramatic' evacuation responses; there are other adaptations: apparently some Formica species (relatives of the wood ants) can entire a kind of hibernation and survive 14 days underwater.

No wonder it's so hard to get rid of the critters once they get into your kitchen.

I feel cat people who spoke Old Japanese would make a lot of use of the so-called "exclamatory" form. At least most of the cats I know are quite exclamatory.

I know this is the Random Thread...but when I clicked the link to see what new posts had been added to the thread, it took me ten minutes to realize I was reading the first page...I'm just glad I realized that before I clicked Submit. (no worries; just thought to mention it)

But if anyone wants to see, this is what I'd been about to reply to:

ah yes, cat people!

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Linguoboy wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:42 am Someone stole my leftovers from the staff fridge. I'm not so much annoyed as amazed it took so long. (It's been nearly twenty years and this is the first time I can remember it happening.)

Yay?
(i'm sorry that it happened, but at least it hasn't happened sooner)

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:46 amIn Genesis 12, in Egypt, Abraham pretends that Sarah is his sister instead of his wife: it goes badly. Then in Genesis 20, he does the exact same thing in Gerar. Is he incredibly forgetful? Or do we have two different versions of the same story?

or hoping that "maybe this time it'll work" ?



Looking more closely, scholars have seen that there are even more fault lines at play. For instance, in the other books of the Bible, the creation narrative is almost never mentioned. God often says "I am your God, the God of Abraham and Moses, the one who brought your people out of Egypt". He never says "I am the one God, the one who created the Heavens and the Earth", although that would be much more impressive. The famous Ten Commandments (who also appear twice, in different circumstances) say that the Hebrews shouldn't worship other gods, never that other gods don't exist — indeed, several passages suggest that foreign gods such Baal, Ashera or Milcolm do exist. It seems that for a long time, the Hebrews were monolatrous (they only worshipped one god) but not monotheists (they didn't think God was the only one):[/quote]

For a long time, I didn't know of monolatry, and thought of it just in terms of henotheism. (are of the opinion that many gods may exist, but only one is deserving to be noticed and worshipped)
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I miss Best Buy.

I miss malls.

keenir wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 6:57 pm

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Tue Nov 05, 2019 8:46 amIn Genesis 12, in Egypt, Abraham pretends that Sarah is his sister instead of his wife: it goes badly. Then in Genesis 20, he does the exact same thing in Gerar. Is he incredibly forgetful? Or do we have two different versions of the same story?

or hoping that "maybe this time it'll work" ?



Looking more closely, scholars have seen that there are even more fault lines at play. For instance, in the other books of the Bible, the creation narrative is almost never mentioned. God often says "I am your God, the God of Abraham and Moses, the one who brought your people out of Egypt". He never says "I am the one God, the one who created the Heavens and the Earth", although that would be much more impressive. The famous Ten Commandments (who also appear twice, in different circumstances) say that the Hebrews shouldn't worship other gods, never that other gods don't exist — indeed, several passages suggest that foreign gods such Baal, Ashera or Milcolm do exist. It seems that for a long time, the Hebrews were monolatrous (they only worshipped one god) but not monotheists (they didn't think God was the only one):

For a long time, I didn't know of monolatry, and thought of it just in terms of henotheism. (are of the opinion that many gods may exist, but only one is deserving to be noticed and worshipped)
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[/quote]

It's even more complicated. There are at least two oral traditions that were stitched together during the first temple period and supplemented. Then they did it again in the early second temple period. Some of these traditions were probably altered many times; some of them may not even originate in Judea. Most scholars believe that true monotheism wasn't dominant until late in the first temple period, and it's not at all clear that Jehovah and Elohim were even the same God until around that time.

I got a crown (the ceramic kind, not the old-school metallic kind) put on one of my molars yesterday, and I get this nagging feeling that it is just a bit.. bigger than my other back teeth...

And only a completely different note, I have a Neopixel on a Seeed XIAO RP2040 constantly cycling through the color wheel on my table. It is mesmerizing, and it is one of the few things the Seeed XIAO RP2040 is good for given how few pins the thing exposes. (Also, I did not have to tie it to my USB-serial dongle, now that I have USB CDC console support.)

keenir wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 6:57 pm For a long time, I didn't know of monolatry, and thought of it just in terms of henotheism. (are of the opinion that many gods may exist, but only one is deserving to be noticed and worshipped)

I wasn't really thinking about the difference between "monolatry" and "henotheism". Probably the Hebrews did both at various points in their history.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed May 24, 2023 9:18 am Most scholars believe that true monotheism wasn't dominant until late in the first temple period, and it's not at all clear that Jehovah and Elohim were even the same God until around that time.

I'd argue that true monotheism only appeared during the Exile.

Indeed, it's likely that El and Yahweh/Jehovah were originally two different deities. El was a creator god who presided over other gods, while Yahweh was a god of storms and war. The name "Yahweh Sabaoth" (Yahweh of Armies) probably refers to that original function; it's sometimes translated as "LORD of hosts".

Sure, let's continue a discussion from 2019.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:10 pm I'd argue that true monotheism only appeared during the Exile.

I'd note that this is what the Tanakh actually describes! The kings were establishing shrines to other gods in the Temple (2 King 21:4). There's also evidence that people thought of Yahweh, like other gods, as having a consort: Asherah in Canaan, but Anat-Yahu in Elephantine. Ezekiel tells of women of Jerusalem weeping for "Tammuz" (Dumuzi, an Akkadian god).

Indeed, it's likely that El and Yahweh/Jehovah were originally two different deities. El was a creator god who presided over other gods, while Yahweh was a god of storms and war.

There's an intriguing bit in Deuteronomy 32:8-9: "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of man... For Yahweh's portion is his people; Jacob is the allotment of his inheritance."

This sounds very much like a high god (in Canaan that would be ’El) handing out the Hebrews to Yahweh. And indeed in most of the Torah, God acts like the national god of the Hebrews, like Chemosh is the god of the Ammonites.

It's hard to interpret as a purely monotheist statement: God apportioned the peoples of the world (to who?) and he gave himself Jacob? A lot of the oddities of God's character (e.g. why he's simultaneously destroying and saving humanity with the Flood) are explained once it's understood that he's an amalgam of several gods.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:29 pm I'd note that this is what the Tanakh actually describes! The kings were establishing shrines to other gods in the Temple (2 King 21:4). There's also evidence that people thought of Yahweh, like other gods, as having a consort: Asherah in Canaan, but Anat-Yahu in Elephantine. Ezekiel tells of women of Jerusalem weeping for "Tammuz" (Dumuzi, an Akkadian god).

Indeed. The difference is that the Tanakh wants us to believe that this was a perversion, and that previously, Israel had only worshipped Yahweh. In fact, the scribes were probably projecting their own views on earlier heroes.

zompist wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:29 pm There's an intriguing bit in Deuteronomy 32:8-9: "When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he separated the sons of man... For Yahweh's portion is his people; Jacob is the allotment of his inheritance."

I was thinking about this passage but couldn't find it.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:10 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Tue May 23, 2023 6:57 pm For a long time, I didn't know of monolatry, and thought of it just in terms of henotheism. (are of the opinion that many gods may exist, but only one is deserving to be noticed and worshipped)

I wasn't really thinking about the difference between "monolatry" and "henotheism".

I don't know if i ever thought they were different or the same...I just know that monolatry is a newcomer to the concepts in my brain, and that I've never thought of the two of them at the same time until I found this thread.

...for which I apologize intensely, raising the long-set-to-rest discussion like an army of bones - I need to stop.

seriously, sorry.

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:10 pm I'd argue that true monotheism only appeared during the Exile.

Babylonian or post-Roman Exile?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 2:44 pm

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:10 pm I'd argue that true monotheism only appeared during the Exile.

Babylonian or post-Roman Exile?

According to what I have heard of this theory, it emerged during the Babylonian Exile; some scholars suspect influence from Zoroastrianism here.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 3:23 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 2:44 pm

Ryusenshi wrote: ↑Fri May 26, 2023 5:10 pm I'd argue that true monotheism only appeared during the Exile.

Babylonian or post-Roman Exile?

According to what I have heard of this theory, it emerged during the Babylonian Exile; some scholars suspect influence from Zoroastrianism here.

Ideas don't have to have a single source. Probably Akhenaten was forgotten by this time, but that was purely monotheistic too, and not Zoroastrian.

I have a handy list of henotheistic passages in the Tanakh, and it's notable that none appear in the Prophets. Personally I'm inclined to think that the prophets were the original "true monotheists"; it's just that they couldn't get everyone else to agree with them till the Babylonian Exile.

At least in English, when people talk about "The Exile" in the context of Judeo-Christian history, they are exclusively referring to the Babylonian exile. The diaspora after the destruction of the second temple is usually called... the disapora after the destruction of the second temple.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat May 27, 2023 2:44 pm Babylonian or post-Roman Exile?

Babylonian. Some later parts of the Tanakh suggest that their authors were true monotheists. Also, the deuterocanonical Letter of Jeremiah explains in detail that the other gods are mere idols and only the God of Israel is a real god, i.e. a pure expression of monotheism: its date is uncertain but earlier than 100 BCE.

Thank you, everyone!

Kinda fitting that people here are continuing a discussion from a few years ago about a aspect of Jewish theology, given that Jewish theology consists to a large extent of scholarly discussions that went on over centuries.

Small random: Here in the Netherlands, at least with the company I'm with, you pay your power bill once per year, but normally the electric company charges monthly prepayment installments, and then you either get a refund at the end of the year or have to pay the remaining balance once your account is fully settled. My first year, the installment was calculated at €60/month for electric, but being alone in my apartment, I ended up getting about €500 back, so now the installments have been closer to €20/month.
For this past year, though, due to the emergency measures taken by the government due to energy prices and the war in Ukraine (energy tax credit changes, for example), I ended up getting a refund of about €300 on an installment of about €20/month. Pretty much meant I didn't have to pay for using electricity last year (and actually got paid a net of ~€50), which felt extremely unusual.