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No idea.

jcb wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:53 pm The German words "Eidechse" and "Echse" both mean "lizard".

Well, English conflates the two senses of lizard. "Echse" is a general term for certain reptiles (Squamata or reptiles in general) that are neither snakes nor birds (and also not turtles/turtoises or crocodiles in some uses). "Eidechse" on the other hand is more specific and refers to certain species of true lizards Lacertidae. Dinosaurs for examples are sometimes called "Echsen" but never "Eidechsen".

As for the etymology, I always though that the second part referred to the way they move, akin to the German terms for reptiles (Kriechtiere), which includes the root "Kriech", which is translated as to creep or to crawl (might be semantically related but not etymologically). So, it would be a snake-crawler because it is an animals that crawls as if it was a snake. According to Wiktionary, the Old Armenian descendant of *tek includes the meaning "to twist, warp, bend, turn" which might be closer to what I imagined.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 3:18 pm

jcb wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 12:53 pm The German words "Eidechse" and "Echse" both mean "lizard".

Well, English conflates the two senses of lizard. "Echse" is a general term for certain reptiles (Squamata or reptiles in general) that are neither snakes nor birds (and also not turtles/turtoises or crocodiles in some uses). "Eidechse" on the other hand is more specific and refers to certain species of true lizards Lacertidae. Dinosaurs for examples are sometimes called "Echsen" but never "Eidechsen".

I didn't realize they had slightly different meanings. Interesting.

As for the etymology, I always though that the second part referred to the way they move, akin to the German terms for reptiles (Kriechtiere), which includes the root "Kriech", which is translated as to creep or to crawl (might be semantically related but not etymologically). So, it would be a snake-crawler because it is an animals that crawls as if it was a snake. According to Wiktionary, the Old Armenian descendant of *tek includes the meaning "to twist, warp, bend, turn" which might be closer to what I imagined.

So, *þehsaną here refers to the crawling and winding movement of a lizard, rather than anything to do with weaving or making linen. That makes sense, thank you.

Creyeditor wrote: ↑Mon Oct 20, 2025 3:18 pm As for the etymology, I always though that the second part referred to the way they move, akin to the German terms for reptiles (Kriechtiere), which includes the root "Kriech", which is translated as to creep or to crawl (might be semantically related but not etymologically). So, it would be a snake-crawler because it is an animals that crawls as if it was a snake. According to Wiktionary, the Old Armenian descendant of *tek includes the meaning "to twist, warp, bend, turn" which might be closer to what I imagined.

Learning about the word "Kriechtiere" and its etymology reminded me of the Russian пресмыкающееся presmykayushcheyesya “reptile”, which likewise translates as “creeping, crawling”. (When I studied Russian in the ‘90s, I learned пресмыкающееся for “reptile”, but an online search shows that рептилия reptiliya is also commonly used.)

I have wondered in the past if the use of пресмыкающееся in Russian (and, I suppose, Kriechtiere in German) came from Biblical usage: Genesis 1:24 and 1:26 (and a few other passages) refer to “creeping things” and “every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth” (the Biblical Hebrew for “creeping thing” is רֶ֥מֶשׂ remesh), which appears to refer to reptiles, but also amphibians, insects, worms, and possibly other small animals. The Russian Holy Synod translation of the Bible uses пресмыкающееся for these passages, and a glance at the Old Church Slavonic version shows something similar. I had thought that the modern use of пресмыкающееся might be a reflection of the Biblical usage, although it could have different and/or older roots.

How did "Salat", in German, become both

1) the word for a type of meal where different kinds of food are cut into small pieces and mixed together with some kind of dip or marinade, and

2) an umbrella term for a group of more or less related vegetables?

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Nov 22, 2025 10:01 am How did "Salat", in German, become both

1) the word for a type of meal where different kinds of food are cut into small pieces and mixed together with some kind of dip or marinade, and

2) an umbrella term for a group of more or less related vegetables?

I don't know, but I think it is because the vegetables in (2) are customarily used for the dish in (1). The word seems to be a Latin loanword, Latin salâtum meaning 'salted', and apparently referred to Salat (1), which was protitypically made from Salat (2).

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sat Nov 22, 2025 12:12 pm

Raphael wrote: ↑Sat Nov 22, 2025 10:01 am How did "Salat", in German, become both

1) the word for a type of meal where different kinds of food are cut into small pieces and mixed together with some kind of dip or marinade, and

2) an umbrella term for a group of more or less related vegetables?

I don't know, but I think it is because the vegetables in (2) are customarily used for the dish in (1). The word seems to be a Latin loanword, Latin salâtum meaning 'salted', and apparently referred to Salat (1), which was protitypically made from Salat (2).

Ah, thank you!

Yes, those plants used to be the archetypical salad ingredient. For my grandparents' generation, the typical salad that accompanied a "potato and meat / fish" main dish was Kopfsalat (lettuce) leaves with a vinaigrette dressing and maybe some other chopped vegetables (usually carrots or radishes) thrown in.

Thank you, too!

I'd say that your typical Kartoffelsalat doesn't contain much lettice, or does it?


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 9:39 am I'd say that your typical Kartoffelsalat doesn't contain much lettice, or does it?


JAL

Hashtag NichtAlleSalate

jal wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 9:39 am I'd say that your typical Kartoffelsalat doesn't contain much lettice, or does it?

I don't know whether that was in jest or meant as a serious objection... anyways, Kartoffelsalat or Wurstsalat or Fleischsalat or Heringssalat, while all traditional, are NOT the archetypical salad in Germany; if you'd gone into any German pub or restaurant before ca. the 1980s and the menu would have said that dish X comes with Beilage Salat, it would have been lettuce with a vinaigrette dressing. (And even today, the Beilagensalat is still likely to contain a mixture of leaves, but they might by rocket or romano or whatever, and you will get a choice of dressings).

hwhatting wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 12:10 pmI don't know whether that was in jest or meant as a serious objection... anyways, Kartoffelsalat or Wurstsalat or Fleischsalat or Heringssalat, while all traditional, are NOT the archetypical salad in Germany; if you'd gone into any German pub or restaurant before ca. the 1980s and the menu would have said that dish X comes with Beilage Salat, it would have been lettuce with a vinaigrette dressing. (And even today, the Beilagensalat is still likely to contain a mixture of leaves, but they might by rocket or romano or whatever, and you will get a choice of dressings).

Thank you. It was my understanding that Raphael asked exactly that, why the word "Salat" was used both for things like Kartofelsalat that doesn't contain anything "salat"y stuff, and the other type of Salat, like the "Beilage Salat" that does.


JAL

jal wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 3:00 pm It was my understanding that Raphael asked exactly that, why the word "Salat" was used both for things like Kartofelsalat that doesn't contain anything "salat"y stuff, and the other type of Salat, like the "Beilage Salat" that does.


JAL

Yes.

While salad is not typically used in English to refer to leafy greens unto themselves, unlike in German, English has the same distinction between a prototypical salad (made with leafy greens) and things like potato salads which may be entirely leafy green-free.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 4:05 pm While salad is not typically used in English to refer to leafy greens unto themselves, unlike in German, English has the same distinction between a prototypical salad (made with leafy greens) and things like potato salads which may be entirely leafy green-free.

correct, i used to work at a grocery store deli and let me tell you some of the things they were allowed to call "salad" were sh ocking ambrosia "salad" doesn't have any vegetables, but it does have marshmallows and whipped cream! the cornerstone of any salad

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 4:48 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 4:05 pm While salad is not typically used in English to refer to leafy greens unto themselves, unlike in German, English has the same distinction between a prototypical salad (made with leafy greens) and things like potato salads which may be entirely leafy green-free.

correct, i used to work at a grocery store deli and let me tell you some of the things they were allowed to call "salad" were sh ocking
[snip]
ambrosia "salad" doesn't have any vegetables, but it does have marshmallows and whipped cream! the cornerstone of any salad

When I think of non-leafy salads I personally think of potato salad and pasta salad and like, not that!

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 3:43 pm

jal wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 3:00 pm It was my understanding that Raphael asked exactly that, why the word "Salat" was used both for things like Kartofelsalat that doesn't contain anything "salat"y stuff, and the other type of Salat, like the "Beilage Salat" that does.
JAL

Yes.

To recap: the "food prepared in some manner" is the older meaning, as shown by the etymolgy from Latin salatus "salted", and the name of the vegetable is derived from its use in the archetypical salad.

Emily wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 4:48 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Mon Nov 24, 2025 4:05 pm While salad is not typically used in English to refer to leafy greens unto themselves, unlike in German, English has the same distinction between a prototypical salad (made with leafy greens) and things like potato salads which may be entirely leafy green-free.

correct, i used to work at a grocery store deli and let me tell you some of the things they were allowed to call "salad" were sh ocking
ambrosia.jpg
ambrosia "salad" doesn't have any vegetables, but it does have marshmallows and whipped cream! the cornerstone of any salad

I knew about fruit salads*, but this goes farther than I would have expected.

*"What's the difference between knowledge and wisdom?" - "Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is technically a fruit. Wisdom is not putting into a fruit salad."

With more knowledge and wisdom you get the idea that tomato actually pairs well with several fruits. The source of this claim is the flavour bible (listing watermelon, orange and canteloupe and perhaps some others I may only have a partial list) which takes from restaurants many of which serve haute cuisine.