Zompist Bboard Again

Has anyone seen this article?. A work colleague showed it to me, but it seems to have turned up in a number of blogs over the last couple of years. Interesting.

Now, can anyone think of any similar rules in other languages? Or any exceptions in English?

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:35 amNow, can anyone think of any similar rules in other languages? Or any exceptions in English?

There's been a lot of work done on the elabourate sound symbolism found in Japanese and Korean, which shows similar patterning.

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:35 am Or any exceptions in English?

The only one I found in a few minutes' pondering was "baddabing!"

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 4:04 pm

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:35 am Or any exceptions in English?

The only one I found in a few minutes' pondering was "baddabing!"

but consider "baddabing baddabang (baddaboom!)"

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:35 am Now, can anyone think of any similar rules in other languages? Or any exceptions in English?

The front-back pattern also shows up in the regular PIE and especially Greek perfect - /e/ in the reduplicated syllable and /o/ in the root syllable. It has been claimed as a universal, but Thai alliterative compounds favour a back-front pattern. I don't know how far that exception extends. I don't know about major Northern Thai lexical items, but the back-front pattern shows up in Northern Thai intensives, which tend to have four syllables.

I think it's tendency rather than a hard rule. After all, NT _palampalɯa_ only just fits back-front, and its English translation 'Good grief!' is arguably an exception.

A couple more: ka-pwing (sound of a bullet), ka-ching (cash register). Maybe not an exception as the a is a shwa, but maybe an exception after all if the general rule is high/front [i] to low/back [a/o].

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:24 pm A couple more: ka-pwing (sound of a bullet), ka-ching (cash register). Maybe not an exception as the a is a shwa, but maybe an exception after all if the general rule is high/front [i] to low/back [a/o].

There seem to be fewer exceptions if one considers only rounded back vowels first to be an actual exception.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:26 pm

zompist wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:24 pm A couple more: ka-pwing (sound of a bullet), ka-ching (cash register). Maybe not an exception as the a is a shwa, but maybe an exception after all if the general rule is high/front [i] to low/back [a/o].

There seem to be fewer exceptions if one considers only rounded back vowels first to be an actual exception.

"Oooo-WEE, that's spicy!"

I'm surprised nobody has tried to connect it to English verbal paradigm "sing-sang-sung." This pattern is pervasive enough that it is used for nonsense words, as in the jazz music piece "Plink, Plank, Plunk."

Doesn't this sound symbolism alternation tendency count only when it's just the nucles that differs (or almost so)? I.e. C₁eeC₂ - C₁aC₂ - C₁ooC₂. If not, you're going to keep finding many counter-examples. 'Good grief' isn't even sound symbolism.

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Tue Mar 22, 2022 5:35 am Has anyone seen this article?.

The article makes a very interesting claim: that this sound rule (or guideline) is strong enough to not just affect sound symbolism, but the syntax of content words, as in "big bad wolf." The article claims that it should be "bad big wolf." But I'm not so sure. "immense regretable wolf" and "regretable immense wolf" both sound equally acceptable to me.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 8:23 pm The article makes a very interesting claim: that this sound rule (or guideline) is strong enough to not just affect sound symbolism, but the syntax of content words, as in "big bad wolf." The article claims that it should be "bad big wolf." But I'm not so sure. "immense regretable wolf" and "regretable immense wolf" both sound equally acceptable to me.

For reference, the claimed order is "opinion-size-age-shape-color-origin-material-purpose-noun".

It isn't exactly an ironclad rule... e.g. "an old Dutch guy" certainly sounds fine, but "a Dutch old guy" isn't wrong. I'd like to see some serious corpus linguistics done here; it seems like the sort of thing where exceptions will be easy to find (unlike the I-A-O sound stuff!).

The ablaut reduplication rule I-A-O doesn't seem to hold *within* words: rabbit, blarney, over, tuna, wallet, loony, only, etc are all counterexamples.

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:40 am The ablaut reduplication rule I-A-O doesn't seem to hold *within* words: rabbit, blarney, over, tuna, wallet, loony, only, etc are all counterexamples.

None of those are reduplicated, so why would it?

I just realised something about my usage:

We're in sight of the church now. We can see the church now.
We're in view of the church now. People at or in the church can see us now.

Relatedly, I seem to prefer in plain view for circumstances where it's qualified (e.g. in plain view of the first three rows) but in plain sight unqualified for "in plain view of everyone".

bradrn wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:47 am

Mornche Geddick wrote: ↑Thu Mar 24, 2022 7:40 am The ablaut reduplication rule I-A-O doesn't seem to hold *within* words: rabbit, blarney, over, tuna, wallet, loony, only, etc are all counterexamples.

None of those are reduplicated, so why would it?

Neither is Big Bad Wolf. I may be wrong about this, but I have the impression that "English" words that contain reduplicated consonants tend not to obey the rule: papa, mama, daddy, mummy, baby, dodo, ta-ta, gaga, cocoa, etc (although there is lilo.)

@zompist: it's just occurred to me that ka-ching and ka-pwing are onomatapeic, and that may be why the rule doesn't apply to them.

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:17 pm For reference, the claimed order is "opinion-size-age-shape-color-origin-material-purpose-noun".

It isn't exactly an ironclad rule... e.g. "an old Dutch guy" certainly sounds fine, but "a Dutch old guy" isn't wrong. I'd like to see some serious corpus linguistics done here; it seems like the sort of thing where exceptions will be easy to find (unlike the I-A-O sound stuff!).

The old guy in "dutch old guy" parses as a single word to me
i definitely wouldn't go around saying dutch young leaf or green young plant

thethief3 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 4:34 am

zompist wrote: ↑Wed Mar 23, 2022 10:17 pm For reference, the claimed order is "opinion-size-age-shape-color-origin-material-purpose-noun".

It isn't exactly an ironclad rule... e.g. "an old Dutch guy" certainly sounds fine, but "a Dutch old guy" isn't wrong. I'd like to see some serious corpus linguistics done here; it seems like the sort of thing where exceptions will be easy to find (unlike the I-A-O sound stuff!).

The old guy in "dutch old guy" parses as a single word to me
i definitely wouldn't go around saying dutch young leaf or green young plant

And yet some Googling pretty easily finds a dozen examples of "green young":

"Hands holding and caring a green young plant."
"Fifty Green Young Fellers" (a song name)
"Oak green young leaves close-up in spring morning." (picture caption— as a bonus, "oak" is "out of place too)
"Tired Milan plans a green, young future"
"Whether working professionally or with her many charities, or just nurturing and mentoring a green young comic trying to make it as an actor..."
"So the noble Tory voters rushed upon the green young man"
"Green young tropical plants growing on fertile soil."
"Compared to 36 species with red young leaves, 40 species with green young leaves showed a significantly higher incidence of enhanced cuticle and trichomes"
"German Shepherd Gives Birth To A Lime Green Young Puppy"
"Green, young, passionate… Latin America and the Spanish-speaking world have always been a constant source of creativity, innovation and talent. "
"In the words of Martin Luther King Jr., who as a green young minister reluctantly agreed to head the Montgomery bus boycott"
"Green young seedling grows through the soil ground. "

You have to be ultra-careful with English "rules" given in pop articles and websites. Often quick formulations of the rules are simply wrong; there may be a real rule there, but it's more nuanced.

zompist wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 1:50 pm And yet some Googling pretty easily finds a dozen examples of "green young":

"Hands holding and caring a green young plant."
"Fifty Green Young Fellers" (a song name)
"Oak green young leaves close-up in spring morning." (picture caption— as a bonus, "oak" is "out of place too)
"Tired Milan plans a green, young future"
"Whether working professionally or with her many charities, or just nurturing and mentoring a green young comic trying to make it as an actor..."
"So the noble Tory voters rushed upon the green young man"
"Green young tropical plants growing on fertile soil."
"Compared to 36 species with red young leaves, 40 species with green young leaves showed a significantly higher incidence of enhanced cuticle and trichomes"
"German Shepherd Gives Birth To A Lime Green Young Puppy"
"Green, young, passionate… Latin America and the Spanish-speaking world have always been a constant source of creativity, innovation and talent. "
"In the words of Martin Luther King Jr., who as a green young minister reluctantly agreed to head the Montgomery bus boycott"
"Green young seedling grows through the soil ground. "

You have to be ultra-careful with English "rules" given in pop articles and websites. Often quick formulations of the rules are simply wrong; there may be a real rule there, but it's more nuanced.

Green Young does follow the sound symbolism outline above and the more i hear it the more i get used to it kinda like big bad wolf.
How many examples of blue old you got and how common is it compared to green young? (I would do it myself but i don't know how to use google that well) (edit blue old guy parses differently to old blue guy since since blue can refer to feeling sad i don't think blue old cloth would be seen much)
Also most of these examples parse as poetic to me.

thethief3 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 26, 2022 3:13 pm How many examples of blue old you got and how common is it compared to green young? (I would do it myself but i don't know how to use google that well)

The trick is:

1. use quotes: search for "blue old" rather than blue old.
2. be patient. I had to go through a lot of pages since "Green" and "Young" are both common names. You also have to filter out obviously different constructions-- "We're going green. Young people are more progressive", stuff like that.
3. I used both Google and Bing... the latter for some reason showed more pages.

It feels like the search engine algorithms get in the way more than they used to, but it's still useful.

zompist wrote: ↑Sun Mar 27, 2022 5:21 pm
The trick is:

1. use quotes: search for "blue old" rather than blue old.
2. be patient. I had to go through a lot of pages since "Green" and "Young" are both common names. You also have to filter out obviously different constructions-- "We're going green. Young people are more progressive", stuff like that.
3. I used both Google and Bing... the latter for some reason showed more pages.

It feels like the search engine algorithms get in the way more than they used to, but it's still useful.

Now that i think about it only one example probably refers to the colour green most refer to green as meaning fresh which doesn't exactly defy the order (one of them did refer to green as in environmentally friendly). frankly i'm thinking it's more of a soft rule. Also googling gives a lot of results for "red fresh" which frankly sounds preposterous to my ears.
"Compared to 36 species with red young leaves, 40 species with green young leaves showed a significantly higher incidence of enhanced cuticle and trichomes"