Zompist Bboard Again

What factors determine whether a patch of land in the tropics ends up as savannah or rainforest?

Rainfall. Technically, rainfall relative to transpiration rate, but if we're confining ourselves to a certain latitude that only changes the results a little.

Most savanna occurs in one of two places: the sahel region, where tropical rainforest transitions to desert, or areas closer to the equator where wind patterns deflect much of the potential rain. Both of these also interact with rain shadow. For example, the Ceara of northeast Brazil is drier than you would expect due to the intertropical convergence zone being deflected north, but within northeast Brazil the truly dry areas are only found on the leeward sides of mountains.

Another option is to simply lift the tropical area to a height where rainfall reduces, which creates tropical grasslands in parts of south and southeast Asia and a few places in eastern Africa and South America. But at that point it's no mystery why we don't have a rainforest, and you have to go pretty high if you're not compounding this elevation with some of the factors cited above.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 4:57 pm Rainfall. Technically, rainfall relative to transpiration rate, but if we're confining ourselves to a certain latitude that only changes the results a little.

Most savanna occurs in one of two places: the sahel region, where tropical rainforest transitions to desert, or areas closer to the equator where wind patterns deflect much of the potential rain. Both of these also interact with rain shadow. For example, the Ceara of northeast Brazil is drier than you would expect due to the intertropical convergence zone being deflected north, but within northeast Brazil the truly dry areas are only found on the leeward sides of mountains.

Another option is to simply lift the tropical area to a height where rainfall reduces, which creates tropical grasslands in parts of south and southeast Asia and a few places in eastern Africa. But at that point it's no mystery why we don't have a rainforest, and you have to go pretty high if you're not compounding this elevation with some of the factors cited above.

Thank you! Hm, now I wonder in which rain shadow Kenya and Tanzania are.

That's not rain shadow exactly, but mostly the result of the Asian monsoon. As air is "sucked in" by summer highs over continental asia, it is deflected by the coriolis effect counter clockwise. This means that during the northern hemisphere summer the winds are moving southwest to northeast or west to east, denying Kenya its potential wet air.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Tue Dec 19, 2023 5:01 pm That's not rain shadow exactly, but mostly the result of the Asian monsoon. As air is "sucked in" by summer highs over continental asia, it is deflected by the coriolis effect counter clockwise. This means that during the northern hemisphere summer the winds are moving southwest to northeast or west to east, denying Kenya its potential wet air.

Thank you again!

Why do humans need to bathe while other animals can go their whole lives without worrying about hygiene? The obvious reason behind hygiene is avoiding disease from germs and dirt gathering on your skin. But other land animals are hardly dropping dead from all the germs on their unwashed bodies. The only explanation I can see is that other animals have much stronger immune systems, although that simply forces us to ask why evolution nerfed the human immune system so much.

it's the insane increase in the human population,
which is conducive to epidemics,
that's forcing us to adopt basic hygiene...

malloc wrote: ↑Wed Dec 20, 2023 10:29 pm Why do humans need to bathe while other animals can go their whole lives without worrying about hygiene? The obvious reason behind hygiene is avoiding disease from germs and dirt gathering on your skin. But other land animals are hardly dropping dead from all the germs on their unwashed bodies.

Your assumptions about animals are wrong. Animals do bathe or clean themselves. And when they live in dense, dirty environments, they get sick.

Hunter-gatherers were usually quite healthy. Sedentism causes a lot of problems for us and for our animals, and we all exchange diseases and parasites. Modern life is a lot safer, but as you should know, it's a very energy-intensive lifestyle.

Also, humans sweat, and most animals don't (or do so only with the nose and mouth). We sweat in order to cool off while hunting.

Finally, how clean we should be is deeply affected by culture and climate. You can keep pretty clean with just water and no soap, but your fellow sedentary apes may screw up their noses at you.

At the same time, it's foolish to romanticize premodern or animal life too much. Sometime, not while you're eating, look up the history of guinea worms. And then reflect on the fact that other animals can get guinea worms too.

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 2:25 amFinally, how clean we should be is deeply affected by culture and climate. You can keep pretty clean with just water and no soap, but your fellow sedentary apes may screw up their noses at you.

Another interesting issue in its own right. Everyone here presumably agrees that body odor stinks whereas nonhuman animals seem quite unconcerned about such things. Why has culture decided that we ought not to smell anyway? [Let me stress that I am not attacking the concept of bathing, just wondering why it became a thing when it seems technically unnecessary.]

odors have long been regarded as miasmas that carry epidemics...

malloc wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 8:27 am

zompist wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 2:25 amFinally, how clean we should be is deeply affected by culture and climate. You can keep pretty clean with just water and no soap, but your fellow sedentary apes may screw up their noses at you.

Another interesting issue in its own right. Everyone here presumably agrees that body odor stinks whereas nonhuman animals seem quite unconcerned about such things. Why has culture decided that we ought not to smell anyway? [Let me stress that I am not attacking the concept of bathing, just wondering why it became a thing when it seems technically unnecessary.]

Cats and dogs certainly seem very concerned about body odor, in their own way

Cats are pretty fastidious about cleaning. Older cats that can't groom themselves don't smell too good, so all the cleaning works, and body odor definitely matters to cats, again, in their own way.

Cultural attitudes towards body odor is probably worth a Ph. D. thesis, and I'm quite sure there have been a few.
One take I read is that deodorant manufacturers definitely played a part in our own culture's attitudes. I don't know how true that hypothesis turned out to be, but on the face of it, it makes sense.

Perfume, in one form or another, is probably close to universal. This is uniquely human because, well, human beings have more efficient means to influence than own smell than animals do.

One of the best headlines of the year (found it via someone on Mastodon):

Frome the Globe and Mail

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politic ... onsulting/

Ottawa paid nearly $670,000 for KPMG’s advice on cutting consultant costs

Wish me luck - I'm about to start washing the dishes that I didn't get around to washing over the last few days.

Raphael wrote: ↑Tue Dec 26, 2023 8:19 am Wish me luck - I'm about to start washing the dishes that I didn't get around to washing over the last few days.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand I'm done. Phew.

xxx wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:35 am it's the insane increase in the human population,
which is conducive to epidemics,
that's forcing us to adopt basic hygiene...

hey, nobodys holding a gun to your head and saying "bathe or else"

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:30 amhey, nobodys holding a gun to your head and saying "bathe or else"

parents do to their children...

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:30 am

xxx wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:35 am it's the insane increase in the human population,
which is conducive to epidemics,
that's forcing us to adopt basic hygiene...

hey, nobodys holding a gun to your head and saying "bathe or else"

Independently of the specific thing you and xxx are talking about, I think you're overrating the difference there. As far as I am concerned, if you end up in a position where, de facto, you can either do a specific thing or suffer very bad consequences, it's pretty much the same as if someone makes you do the thing by putting a gun to your head.

(That's one of my biggest disagreements with the libertarians. My disagreement with them is not so much over whether coercion is bad, but more over what coercion is in the first place.)

we can just stay Darwinian,
it's the environment that holds the gun,
only those who can avoid it survive...

but sometimes the choice not to survive is worth it...

Raphael wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:02 pm

keenir wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 11:30 am

xxx wrote: ↑Thu Dec 21, 2023 1:35 am it's the insane increase in the human population,
which is conducive to epidemics,
that's forcing us to adopt basic hygiene...

hey, nobodys holding a gun to your head and saying "bathe or else"

Independently of the specific thing you and xxx are talking about, I think you're overrating the difference there. As far as I am concerned, if you end up in a position where, de facto, you can either do a specific thing or suffer very bad consequences, it's pretty much the same as if someone makes you do the thing by putting a gun to your head.

if & when there are VERY bad consequences as a result, that is true, I can agree with/to that. But if the only consequence that the nonbather notices is "Nobody is bothering me while I study in a library, and strangers don't walk up to be and start a conversation"...thats not what I call VERY bad.

I typed all that, and only then started suspecting you and XXX were referring to the connection between hygene and "conducive to epidemics", which I hadn't cottoned on to in my prior post or current ont (til now)...and even with all the VERY VERY VERY bad consequences in getting Covid, a lot of people seem to not feel there is a gun to their head.

(That's one of my biggest disagreements with the libertarians. My disagreement with them is not so much over whether coercion is bad, but more over what coercion is in the first place.)

excellent point.

xxx wrote: ↑Wed Dec 27, 2023 1:10 pmbut sometimes the choice not to survive is worth it...

I believe the correct Batty Koda response is "Thats lemming talk!"

Seriously, unless you're thinking you'll end up in one paradise or another (or reincarnate), then how is it "worth it" - and for whom?