Zompist Bboard Again

Why would a trans woman need or want used feminine hygiene products? That's not validating, that's gross.

Update: turns out the memo we got was not actually from management, but from a single resident; a lie, or as it's now being spun, an invitation for us to interrogate our cis privilege. [Sic.] So, it's not quite as... whatever, as it appeared yesterday. Back to our regularly scheduled reprogramming. Sorry for the vent.

Still uck...

I have to wonder, truly, what’s in it for people when they speak of atrocities in the past. If they truly committed them, yes, I understand reluctance and grief and wishing to do better. But what good does self-flagellation do for those who have suffered? It feels like throwing a temper tantrum.
I understand, truly. There have been massacres in Turkey by the various governments, and massacres that happened to Poles, and by the time of the 1990s a fairly equal bout of killing on either side of the Irish conflict (and I’ve got family from both sides). And yet somehow when it comes to Canada, and the recent news about the mass grave in Kamloops, my fellow nationals seem less concerned with what’s essential (finding the identities of the children, determining how they died, reuniting them with their families), and instead more on how “we must all carry our genocide within ourselves”--a wonderful sentiment to import to a country of immigrants, increasing numbers of whom either have escaped their own genocides or are disassociating themselves with governments that caused them or both at the same time. What, in a nutshell, is the point? It feels like an inversion of colonial attitudes, not a dissolution of them; what was once the cry of “we’re obviously better” has turned into “we’re obviously worse”. I mean, gods. Focus, you idiots. There are essential things to do here to restore good faith and allow broken families to heal, self-centred debasement can wait. If you have something you can do, then do it. Demonstrate the remorse you proclaim, and show the world why we can be proud to be Canadian even in our darkest hours. Otherwise it’s as meaningful as “thoughts and prayers”, and less productive.
I don’t know. I know this is important, gods it’s increasingly my line of work, but I dislike my fellow Canadians’ self-righteous self-degradation as much as I dislike my fellow Turks’ dismissive attitude to their country’s own crimes against humanity (“the Greeks just wanted to move back to Greece of their own free will” my eye). It’s just two extremes of stupid arrogance in the face of suffering, and neither do anything to help, but one’s more pretentious while the other is more apathetic.

Pedant wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:11 pm I have to wonder, truly, what’s in it for people when they speak of atrocities in the past. If they truly committed them, yes, I understand reluctance and grief and wishing to do better. But what good does self-flagellation do for those who have suffered? It feels like throwing a temper tantrum.

I agree 100% on not self-flagellating. To be honest with you, I don't think they do it out of any pretense of caring; but as some way to "atone"- as if they need to be punished for things they didn't do cause they were born icky ("benefit from privilege"). Privileged people do benefit from privilege, hence the description, but I see no reason why you can't just not hate and/or look down on people because of it.

Likewise, I have so much distrust for any privileged people who self-flagellate. It will never come off sincere, and even if it did, it's still obnoxious. If it helped, I'd be lenient no matter what I thought deep down, but it doesn't so I won't.

Being proud to be of a specific culture, especially of a settler state, on the other hand; now that I have issue with. I can halfway understand Canadians still suffering from not being American, tho.

Self-flagellation about such matters is essentially proclaiming oneself as "guiltier than thou" even though there is no good reason one should feel guilty - one was likely not alive when this happened, one was not there when this happened, one did not know about this when this happened so there is no way one could have spoken up, and so on - all that many people have in common with the perpetrators is race and nationality, and we all know how much that matters.

Oh, it's a great way to feel better about yourself without doing anything useful, is all.

Idk I think there is some value in people feeling guilty about past injustices. I have met British people who feel guilty about colonialism in India, and I'm glad they are because they benefit immensely from it today and it came very close to preventing me from existing.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 4:17 pm Does anything happen when somebody is German or English? No? Well stop fucking whining that people are, and accept them as human beings. Nothing happens if we don't treat privilege as like original sin.

EDIT: while i do mean what I say, I know there are very much infinitely worse problems on this planet and this is just empty venting

What actually happened? Someone said it's bad that someone else was German or English?

Pedant wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:11 pmI have to wonder, truly, what’s in it for people when they speak of atrocities in the past.

So they don't do them again later?

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:06 pm Idk I think there is some value in people feeling guilty about past injustices. I have met British people who feel guilty about colonialism in India, and I'm glad they are because they benefit immensely from it today and it came very close to preventing me from existing.

It's better than priding oneself over it, I'll definitely say that. As for benefits, what are they do? Rewind the clock and undo it all? Just accept they are supposed to be hated for being born a certain way?

Not to imply you think anything, this ofc stresses me out for personal reasons, but I don't mean to take any of it out on you.

Vijay wrote:

Starbeam wrote: ↑Thu May 27, 2021 4:17 pmDoes anything happen when somebody is German or English? No? Well stop fucking whining that people are, and accept them as human beings. Nothing happens if we don't treat privilege as like original sin.

EDIT: while i do mean what I say, I know there are very much infinitely worse problems on this planet and this is just empty venting

What actually happened? Someone said it's bad that someone else was German or English?

Kinda. I've seen so many people treat Germans as having existential sin (reminder: Jewish) by being born such. Like the mere facet of them being born into privilege makes them unforgivable and worthy of hatred. And that they deserve hostilities on sight. Heaven forbid one just stop instantly hating or looking down on people for being born improperly.

Vijay wrote:

Pedant wrote: ↑Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:11 pmI have to wonder, truly, what’s in it for people when they speak of atrocities in the past.

So they don't do them again later?

I don't see how constantly being shamed for all their life helps. But also, just because somebody is ashamed doesn't mean they'll actually help. Paralysis from guilt doesn't do anything but stall time that could be spent making a difference.

EDIT: I misread Pedant's comment and thus your response. I absolutely believe in never ever forgetting atrocities. It would be a massive disservice to the victims' legacies if one just acted like it's a regularity. I also want to clarify i don't want deep discourse into this (it was a vent), but i understand if the convo gets carried away.

There are two ways of denying the evils of colonialism: one is to simply ignore them and refuse to apologize (as France does), the other is to apologize so profusely which such heights of self-flagellation that the apology is now about you and what a wonderful ethical being you are and not about the victims.

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:27 pm

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:06 pm Idk I think there is some value in people feeling guilty about past injustices. I have met British people who feel guilty about colonialism in India, and I'm glad they are because they benefit immensely from it today and it came very close to preventing me from existing.

As for benefits, what are they do? Rewind the clock and undo it all? Just accept they are supposed to be hated for being born a certain way?

Use their priviledge to help the former colonies (which of course requires going and asking those people what they actually need)

Using one's privilege to actually help the less privileged, and before doing so asking them what them what they truly need (as Kath mentions), is different from self-flagellating in such a fashion that you can smugly claim to be such a good person. The former helps the less privileged, while the latter just makes one feel better about oneself to the benefit of no one.

KathTheDragon wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 4:16 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:27 pm

Vijay wrote: ↑Sun Jun 06, 2021 11:06 pm Idk I think there is some value in people feeling guilty about past injustices. I have met British people who feel guilty about colonialism in India, and I'm glad they are because they benefit immensely from it today and it came very close to preventing me from existing.

As for benefits, what are they do? Rewind the clock and undo it all? Just accept they are supposed to be hated for being born a certain way?

Use their priviledge to help the former colonies (which of course requires going and asking those people what they actually need)

There is the matter of how many can actually afford to do so, though. Given that the average GDP seems to be lower than Canada’s, even, and living costs somewhat higher, I’d say there’s a decent chance that even if one can live comfortably and make sure one’s family is alright--paramount concerns for any and every human being--it’s going to be difficult to convince the middle and lower classes to spend a large portion of their income to fly to a continent most will never have visited and inquire as to how they can fix the mistakes their country-folk made over a period three hundred years or so for families they’ve never met. If you mean education, far as I know folk from the colonies regularly attend even and especially the best schools, and whether they choose to go back and help their country is their own business and responsibility. If you mean supporting their endeavours through words, well, pretty darn sure the BBC at least has had nothing but words criticizing and condemning even the general public for the part they played, as has done for about a decade at least, and that doesn’t seem to have done much. If that means getting business deals, again, it depends on what the average person can actually manage once they have made certain their own families are alright, and the whims of people who are wealthy enough to make a difference--who are the same world over regardless of nation of origin.
So what, in a nutshell, can the people of Britain actually do to help?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Jun 07, 2021 2:49 am There are two ways of denying the evils of colonialism: one is to simply ignore them and refuse to apologize (as France does), the other is to apologize so profusely which such heights of self-flagellation that the apology is now about you and what a wonderful ethical being you are and not about the victims.

As Canada does...and the worst of it is that we are better than that. Whatever people can safely spare (and some have precious little to spare), if they wish it, can go to helping others. That is an honourable way to behave. If it means righting a few wrongs along the way, that’s more honour to them, not less. But the country is divided between those who wish to see everything torn down out of a flurry of self-hatred (or, for some, just hatred) and those who are becoming increasingly detached from the whole issue, which isn’t right either. And the flagellators, if you will, have a much more prominent media presence, because some idiot thought this would be the cheapest way of showing acknowledgement of wrongdoing without doing much to actually help those affected.

Why is it validated to look down/ outright hate on people for benefitting from privilege like it taints them irreparably? When do i get genuine acceptance and futurity?

I'm also sick of people who i say i fear being offended by it. Heaven forbid i be afraid. I understand plenty fears are rooted in bigoted reasoning; but the main reason i'm afraid of others is because i bet they're not really liking me around, but too afraid of me to say no. Stg it feels like social fluency is handed out like candy but not to me.

EDIT: I greatly apologize for the first rant, I'm just stressed rn.

Whenever you rant like this, I just wonder what you're talking about.

Vijay wrote: ↑Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:55 pm Whenever you rant like this, I just wonder what you're talking about.

French people holding grudges against all Germans for WW2 atrocities (for example). Doesn't matter they did nothing to contribute to that at this point. Doesn't matter Germany and Germans on the whole have largely paid reparations and made things right. If people who have genuinely done the right thing have zero chance of redemption or acceptance, what chance do i have for the atrocities i benefit from?

And I get it's not all French people or Jews besides me or people in general, but it is certainly a cultural habit.

Even if it's not the worst thing ever, I can't just shrug off socially approved original sin. Maybe I'm ruminating tho, i have no idea what to think or do about it so i generally ignore it till it boils over.

EDIT: the second paragraph about social fluency and whatnot is unrelated

Starbeam wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:22 am French people holding grudges against all Germans for WW2 atrocities (for example). Doesn't matter they did nothing to contribute to that at this point. Doesn't matter Germany and Germans on the whole have largely paid reparations and made things right. If people who have genuinely done the right thing have zero chance of redemption or acceptance, what chance do i have for the atrocities i benefit from?

But... French people don't hold a grudge against Germans!

Well, a tiny and dwindling number do. But they're in the minority and it's a generational thing. Typically people who were in German POW camps or suchlike.

Ares Land wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:37 am

Starbeam wrote: ↑Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:22 am French people holding grudges against all Germans for WW2 atrocities (for example). Doesn't matter they did nothing to contribute to that at this point. Doesn't matter Germany and Germans on the whole have largely paid reparations and made things right. If people who have genuinely done the right thing have zero chance of redemption or acceptance, what chance do i have for the atrocities i benefit from?

But... French people don't hold a grudge against Germans!

Well, a tiny and dwindling number do. But they're in the minority and it's a generational thing. Typically people who were in German POW camps or suchlike.

I have met a fair amount of French people younger than the both of us who look down on Germans for that reason. Chalk it up to Gen Y-Z "sjw" stuff all you want, I doubt this had anything to do with actual social justice. Even if it did, a trend's a trend. And to be clear, I get the average French person, definitely the great majority is not still going to be bitter. What bugs me is the fact a tangible amount of youths at all are like this. Nationalism in of itself isn't a burden, for the record. Especially since what i describe is better classified as "chauvinism".

I will grant that not only have I never been to France, I am blocked behind a language barrier online.

Oh! What a bunch of assholes.
The irony of it is, if there's a country that would benefit from a bit of soul-searching concerning WWII, it's France.

France at the time was horribly anti-semitic and had quite a number of home-grown fascists. Many countries were forced into collaboration back then, but in France we really did more than that: we went along with the program with cheerful enthusiasm.