Zompist Bboard Again

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 5:46 am I think they don't do a good job as identifying signs (which was the function of European heraldry).

I think the simpler or more distinctive signs (e.g. 1, 3, 6, 8, 10) could be used for this purpose. Otherwise, yes, I agree with you.

More on Proto-Oqshite

Inverse number

POq features inverse number. That is to say, nouns are either basic singular, dual, or plural. The shape of the number affix varies, but the vowel phonation always echoes that of the final vowel in the stem.

*tobyeg 'population, the masses'
*tobyeg-ey 'person, individual'

*dgı̊m 'stand of trees, forest'
*dgı̊m~åy 'tree'

When specific plurals are needed, reduplication is resorted to.

*byùñù 'skeleton'
*byùñù-yè 'bone'
*byù~byùñù 'skeletons'
*byùñù-yè~yè 'bones'

Items that normally come in pairs are considered basic dual. The affix turns the noun into the singular. To signify multiple pairs of these items, the noun is reduplicated.

*gẘl 'pair of feet, two feet'
*gẘl-åg 'foot'
*gẘl~gẘl 'feet all over the place'

*yũ 'pair of hands, two hands'
*yũ-nãy 'hand'
*yũ~yũ 'many hands'

*tyòmp 'pair of shoes'
*tyòmp-òy 'shoe'
*tyòmp~tyòmp a surplus of shoes

Interestingly, the first-person pronoun basic plural whereas the second- person is basic singular (demonstratives are used for third-person pronouns). Reduplication of the pronouns implies the dual, not the plural (the singular/plural distinction was original, the dual coming into existence under the influence of the dual nouns).

1SG *kņem
1DL *kņem~kņem
1PL *kņem-dđw
2SG *dđbè-yè
2DL *dđbè~dđbè
2PL *dđbè

Noun classes

POq featured an array of noun classes:

1. Sentient, sapient, sophont; natural forces (fire, lightning, earthquakes, aurorae…) as agent
2. Mammals, birds
3. Reptiles, amphibians, fish
4. Red plants, high landforms, freestanding structures
5. Yellow plants, low-lying constructs, things low to the ground
6. Black plants, liquids, vapors
7. Natural forces as patient/neutral volition
8. Worked materials or items
9. Diseases, illnesses, physical maladies, defects, flaws
10. Waterforms (rivers, lakes, streams, books, springs…)
11. Raw materials, natural resources, metal ores, matrices
12. Abstract I
13. Abstract II
14. Abstract III
15. Abstract IV

Light verb constructions

Often, concepts you might normally express via verbs in other languages (such as English) get shunted into periphrastic constructions with a light verb.

*dđbè gmèt-tĩ ñjẘ kņeme̊d

dđbè

2PL

gmèt

do

-tĩ

IMPF

ñjẘ

aid

kņem

1SG

=e̊d

GEN

'you (pl.) help me'

Directionals

POq was like Guugu Yimithirr in that directionals are absolute (north, south, &c.). Their "prime" directional was west, and there are eight atomic directionals.

*gĩyõņ 'west'
*jñĩgı̊ 'northwest'
*to̊gkùb 'north'
*bwtim 'northeast'
*lyẽlů 'east'
*knõyò 'southeast'
*e̊yðè 'south'
*jsiñga 'southwest'

Color terms

POq distinguished the following atomic colors:

*ņdåg 'dark, black'
*gèñw 'light, white, yellow' (yellow-white polysemy is incredibly common on Íröd)
*agw̃đ 'red'
*bo̊ga 'green'
*ntàb 'blue'
*ñõb 'brown'

Interestingly, the first-person basic plural whereas the second- person is basic singular

Actually, judging from the forms shown, it looks as though the opposite is true: the basic form of the first person pronoun is singular (with an affix needed to turn it into a plural), while the basic form of the second person pronoun is plural (with the affix needed to turn it into a singular).

Overall, it looks like a very interesting system. I look forward to seeing more examples of how the language works in practice.

A fellow Nilotic enjoyer, I see…

Do the genders interact with the number marking? I think it would be unrealistic if they didn’t. e.g. here‘s the situation in Luwo (from Storch’s grammar):

Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:54 pm

Interestingly, the first-person basic plural whereas the second- person is basic singular

Actually, judging from the forms shown, it looks as though the opposite is true: the basic form of the first person pronoun is singular (with an affix needed to turn it into a plural), while the basic form of the second person pronoun is plural (with the affix needed to turn it into a singular).

You are correct, I screwed it up writing it.

Glenn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 6:54 pmOverall, it looks like a very interesting system. I look forward to seeing more examples of how the language works in practice.

Thank you! (And so do I…)

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:03 pm A fellow Nilotic enjoyer, I see…

In a demonstration of what zompist calls “the perfidy of statistics” (I want to use that as an album title), I am one of the world’s foremost experts on Nyarafolo. Not because I’m fluent or well-versed, but because I happened to be brought in contact with two of the missionaries documenting the language when I was in high school and did some formal work on it in college.

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:03 pmDo the genders interact with the number marking? I think it would be unrealistic if they didn’t.

We will see. It looks that way, at least preliminarily.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:35 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:03 pm A fellow Nilotic enjoyer, I see…

In a demonstration of what zompist calls “the perfidy of statistics” (I want to use that as an album title), I am one of the world’s foremost experts on Nyarafolo. Not because I’m fluent or well-versed, but because I happened to be brought in contact with two of the missionaries documenting the language when I was in high school and did some formal work on it in college.

But Nyarafolo isn’t Nilotic!

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:56 pm

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:35 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:03 pm A fellow Nilotic enjoyer, I see…

In a demonstration of what zompist calls “the perfidy of statistics” (I want to use that as an album title), I am one of the world’s foremost experts on Nyarafolo. Not because I’m fluent or well-versed, but because I happened to be brought in contact with two of the missionaries documenting the language when I was in high school and did some formal work on it in college.

But Nyarafolo isn’t Nilotic!

See what I mean?

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:58 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:56 pm

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 7:35 pm In a demonstration of what zompist calls “the perfidy of statistics” (I want to use that as an album title), I am one of the world’s foremost experts on Nyarafolo. Not because I’m fluent or well-versed, but because I happened to be brought in contact with two of the missionaries documenting the language when I was in high school and did some formal work on it in college.

But Nyarafolo isn’t Nilotic!

See what I mean?

Hmm… not really, no…

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:13 pm

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:58 pm

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 9:56 pm

But Nyarafolo isn’t Nilotic!

See what I mean?

Hmm… not really, no…

There’s not a lot out there about it as few have worked on it in scholarly climes.

When I was in Intro to Linguistics in college, we were tasked, as a final, to do a short, professional write-up about certain aspects of a language—kind of a grammar sketch. He encouraged us to go for less “obvious” languages, if that makes sense.

When I was in high school, Mme. O’Neal, our French teacher, introduced us to Glenn and Linnea Boese, a pair of missionaries she knew who had been working in Côte d’Ivoire (specifically in the Ferkessedougou region). They did a bit of phonological and grammatical/typological stuff, and that stuck with me.

So, those years later, I reached out and asked them if they had any documents on Nyarafolo that they’d be willing to share. They sent me quite a bit. (I still have it somewhere; I peruse it for inspiration every so often.) The final went over well.

I guess the humor in it for me is that it’s an example of how something sounds impressive but really isn’t. Like, see, I’ve done research projects on it and still can’t tell you it isn’t Nilotic.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:33 pm Like, see, I’ve done research projects on it and still can’t tell you it isn’t Nilotic.

Oh… OK. I hadn’t realised that’s what you meant.

(It’s a pity explaining a joke kills it, isn’t it?)

bradrn wrote: ↑Mon Jan 06, 2025 10:52 pm(It’s a pity explaining a joke kills it, isn’t it?)

It gave me the opportunity to revisit some of the actual good memories of that time of my life.

(I ended up changing brush settings mid-writing this post, hence why some look like Caber Helvetica and others more calligraphied. It's late and I don't want to have to fix it right now.)

1. erx /ɛɾks/
   1. n. Tear, tears, lachrymal discharge.
   2. n. Teardrop, mote or particle of tears.
2. irx /iɾks/
   1. n. Tint, tinge.
   2. n. Hue, color, shade.
3. orx /ɔɾks/
   1. n. Worker insect.

1. arxcric /aɾkskɾik ~ aɾkskjik/
   1. n. Caber myth or legend.
   2. n. Generational and/or cultural knowledge.
   3. n. Druidic canon.
2. de /dɛ/
   1. adj. Dear, beloved, cherished, close.
3. ectro /ɛktɾɔ ~ ɛktsɔ ~ ɛktjɔ/
   1. n. Tradition, habit, custom.
   2. n. Transmissible information; meme.
4. gectar /jɛktaɾ ~ ʑɛktaɾ/
   1. n. Casualty, death as a result of s.t..
   2. n. Death, loss.
   3. n. Discharge, jettison, ejecta.
   4. v. To misplace, to put s.t. down s.w. and then forget where one has put it, to lose track of.

Here we have a case of a single glyph having multiple readings. This occasionally happened in the system, but other methods include phonetic radicals. Of these, there are two strata—a simpler, older form that represented only the first consonant via an addition to the bottom third or so of the glyph and that sort of became "fossilized" by the time the second came around, and a later, more complex form that had radicals of various shapes and orientations come by.



One of the quirks is that the phonetic radical BŎ came from the term bŏncfeu 'xenchromatonuria', a disease of the adasar characterized by yellow or orange urine. (Dahsar urine is typically reddish given the high iron in the environment. Dahsar blood is purple when oxygenated and clear-ish when spent, so this doesn't paper over blood in the urine, but still, vin rose.)



So, for example:



BŎ + CAQ 'think, reason' = bŏden 'science, field, profession, practice, art, vocation'
BŎ + BAÇAM 'pick a fight, instigate' = bŏnqov 'fix, conspiracy, harassment, abuse'

In the latter example above, note how both the phonetic and the semantic have had their proportions changed. This is due to the riq 'checkerboard, checked; (here) grid' system.

CC stroke order generally starts from the bottom left and works its way left-to-right and bottom-to-top per character. Some complexes may be considered a single stroke (for example, when drawing the "feet" of the glyph of the dude standing, that's typically done in one stroke no matter whether there is one or more than one figure in the glyphic space).

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 1:39 am (I ended up changing brush settings mid-writing this post, hence why some look like Caber Helvetica and others more calligraphied. It's late and I don't want to have to fix it right now.)

Out of curiosity, what tools do the Caber themselves usually write with?

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 1:52 amOut of curiosity, what tools do the Caber themselves usually write with?

In the early days, brushes (ŭmŭ means both ‘paint’ and ‘write’). This eventually gave way to more of a stylus-type implement before pens with nibs were developed.

Of course, nowadays you can use movable type or computer interfaces.

Man in Space wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 1:55 am

bradrn wrote: ↑Tue Jan 07, 2025 1:52 amOut of curiosity, what tools do the Caber themselves usually write with?

In the early days, brushes (ŭmŭ means both ‘paint’ and ‘write’). This eventually gave way to more of a stylus-type implement before pens with nibs were developed.

Hmm… what type of nib? From the later images I’d guess a rather narrow broad-edged nib, but then I’d expect more ‘flexibility’ in the shapes (for lack of a better word).

EDIT: also, bottom-to-top writing would be a little strange with a broad-edged nib… though from the angle you chose, I see that it could possibly be feasible if the pen is held correctly.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Sun Jan 05, 2025 5:46 am I think they don't do a good job as identifying signs (which was the function of European heraldry).

Its not always easy to count how many lions are on a banner, or if they're lions or weasels, particularly across a field.

Perhaps those which are more distinct from one another, are more likely to be from neighboring bannerlands.....or are slight/subtle distinctions more likely to arise within a bannerland, and their possessors would go out and - but that would reinforce the above suggestion, wouldn't it, with those small differences taking up residence further from the parent banner?

Just quickly while I'm on my lunch break:

Nice stuff! Also, I like that old-fashioned typography which look as if it was printed 100 years ago.

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 7:10 am Nice stuff! Also, I like that old-fashioned typography which look as if it was printed 100 years ago.

That’s mostly the serif typeface, in my opinon — everything else about the typography strikes me as quite modern. (Man in Space has talked about this face previously but I don’t quite remember what it’s called.)

bradrn wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 6:44 pm

WeepingElf wrote: ↑Wed Jan 08, 2025 7:10 am Nice stuff! Also, I like that old-fashioned typography which look as if it was printed 100 years ago.

That’s mostly the serif typeface, in my opinon — everything else about the typography strikes me as quite modern. (Man in Space has talked about this face previously but I don’t quite remember what it’s called.)

TT Marxiana, which is inspired by XIX-Century periodicals.