Zompist Bboard Again

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:00 am My question is, what in the living hell is making liberals more friendly toward corporations?

That seems to be a move of a few percentage points at most, so it might well be a random fluctuation. Or perhaps some rather naive people are taken in by the occasional symbolic gestures of some corporations?

My guess is also that younger but well-off people are socially progressive, but not economically.

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:52 pm My guess is also that younger but well-off people are socially progressive, but not economically.

Are you saying that there are younger well-off people in the USA these days? In large enough numbers to have an impact on polls and the like?

I'm not entirely sure, but I think that might account for some of the fluctuation, in tandem with an element of randomness. Some younger people do have inherited business connections, leading to nepotism, and so forth, but it was more a passing thought than anything for which I have any hard evidence.

Raphael wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 3:47 pm

Rounin Ryuuji wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 1:52 pm My guess is also that younger but well-off people are socially progressive, but not economically.

Are you saying that there are younger well-off people in the USA these days? In large enough numbers to have an impact on polls and the like?

Think people like myself; I am a programmer (some would say "software engineer") by profession, and am compensated quite decently. I wouldn't quite call myself "younger" anymore, but I haven't hit 40 yet.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:00 am My question is, what in the living hell is making liberals more friendly toward corporations?

authoritarian personalities gravitate toward whichever movement holds more power

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:37 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:00 am My question is, what in the living hell is making liberals more friendly toward corporations?

authoritarian personalities gravitate toward whichever movement holds more power

I'm confused. Wouldn't that make corporations flee the left like rats from a sinking ship? And how would that affect liberals' feelings about the authoritarians?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:15 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:37 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:00 am My question is, what in the living hell is making liberals more friendly toward corporations?

authoritarian personalities gravitate toward whichever movement holds more power

I'm confused. Wouldn't that make corporations flee the left like rats from a sinking ship? And how would that affect liberals' feelings about the authoritarians?

Nortaneous erroneously associates liberals with "authoritarians", especially despite what we have seen in recent years.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:00 am My question is, what in the living hell is making liberals more friendly toward corporations?

The poll is of Democrats, not liberals. Since the time interval is just two years, the biggest factor is likely to be the change in administration. Each party feels better when it's in charge.

The really interesting poll would be what big corporations think of the political parties. For generations the GOP has been a grand bargain: the rich get to control everything in exchange for letting the conservatives talk about culture war all day long. I'm guessing this rift just amounts to the culture warriors getting mad at Twitter rather than any actual divorce.

Well, corporations are not a monolithic block. On many issues, some are on different sides to other corporations. E.g. climate change - while there are still hold-outs among fossile fuel companies or in the car industry who would like to continue business as usual, there are others who have bet big money on alternative energy, reducing their CO2 footprint, etc. Other companies don't like the stances the conservatives take in the culture war - never mind whether that is a question of convictions or just of being worried about their image and being attractive to the kind of creative employees they need. Low taxes and reducing workers rights are not everything corporations are interested in - many companies in the knowledge and IT fields have a problem attracting the employees they need (I'm in the ICT industry and can see the competition in recruiting); reducing minimal wages or shackling unions are irrelevant to them. Low taxes are fine, but if the people promoting them risk the future of a corporation's business by pursuing policies (like decoupling from the World Trade System or not going along with changing international standards on CO2 footprints) that hinder the U.S. from keeping up with international developments, that will be more relevant to them.

Business owners tend to be conservatives in Europe due to social class and upbringing. (I don't know how it is in the US.)
I wouldn't be surprised if the smartest kind of businesspeople turned out to be a little liberal.

Conservatism will bring you some short term benefits, but I think liberalism is generally better for business. You don't get a lot of innovation going on, or much of a consumer market if everyone starves but the plutocrats. I think the savvier investor can figure out it's worth paying moderately higher wages and slightly higher taxes. And, on the off chance that the rich do get higher taxes (which almost never happens) it's just a problem of hiring smart accountants.

I think it's telling that current conservative ideologues -- who I think are very disturbed but smart people -- are kind of anti-capitalist. (The market doesn't care about your personal hobby horses and deals with trans people or immigration just fine.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:05 am I think it's telling that current conservative ideologues -- who I think are very disturbed but smart people -- are kind of anti-capitalist. (The market doesn't care about your personal hobby horses and deals with trans people or immigration just fine.)

This certainly isn't a new observation, but I've always thought it was amusing that the sterotypical conservative might complain about immigrants "taking" the jobs, as if employers were being held up at gun point by banditos or something. But then, of course, coporations switching to immigrant labor and leaving the local working class high and dry was never really the problem; the problem was the working class blaming the corporations for it instead of their fellow workers.

Since I've got you, and you're talking about European capitalism, how do you feel about the age-old chestnut that worker class consciousness never caught on in America because the presence of much larger racial minorities than in Europe gave the elites a greater ability to pit the working class against itself?

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:24 am Since I've got you, and you're talking about European capitalism, how do you feel about the age-old chestnut that worker class consciousness never caught on in America because the presence of much larger racial minorities than in Europe gave the elites a greater ability to pit the working class against itself?

I think the American working class being pitted against itself along racial lines is readily observable.

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 5:24 am Since I've got you, and you're talking about European capitalism, how do you feel about the age-old chestnut that worker class consciousness never caught on in America because the presence of much larger racial minorities than in Europe gave the elites a greater ability to pit the working class against itself?

Oh, I don't feel competent enough to offer intelligent observations in American politics.

If it helps, I can tell you how it goes in France.
Basically, for France, the theory seems to hold. Generally speaking, people noticed that there were significant minorities (notably, but not only, North Africans) back in the 80s. After that voters generally forgot about communism and lost much interest into socialism.
Much of the far-right's strongholds are strongly working-class places. The FN (now RN) noticed; they used to be racist libertarians, now their platform is well, national and socialist. (Pun fully intended.)
Generally a lot of people we'd expect to vote left (if they acted purely on economic self-interest) do tend to vote for the (traditional) right or the far right, claiming concern about immigration, or crime.

And of course the sure way to get rid of the left is to play the race or Islam card. According to right-wing rags, any vaguely leftist candidate will surely bring about Soviet-style communism and the Caliphate, not necessarily in that order. So the theory certainly holds to some extent, and it's even a conscious strategy.


That being said... I think class consciousness is pretty much a myth, and not attainable in practice. There have always been a good number of conservative working class people. Some unity could exist back in the day when big industries dominated everything, but that world is long gone.
Generally speaking, a factory worker in a small town, a supermarket cashier or a public service employee in downtown Paris all have more or less the same income, but little in common besides. I don't think there is such a thing as the working class anymore (and I doubt there ever was in the first place.)

Another thought on the poll that started the current subdiscussion, and Moose-tache's question about it: Perhaps between 2019 and 2021, some people with corporate-friendly views moved from seeing themselves as independents or Republicans to seeing themselves as Democrats, thus driving up pro-corporate views among Democrats?

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 6:57 am
That being said... I think class consciousness is pretty much a myth, and not attainable in practice. There have always been a good number of conservative working class people. Some unity could exist back in the day when big industries dominated everything, but that world is long gone.
Generally speaking, a factory worker in a small town, a supermarket cashier or a public service employee in downtown Paris all have more or less the same income, but little in common besides. I don't think there is such a thing as the working class anymore (and I doubt there ever was in the first place.)

Then again, some right-wingers seem to be pretty successful at appealing to some working class people's working class pride against the supposed "left-wing elites".

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:09 pm Then again, some right-wingers seem to be pretty successful at appealing to some working class people's working class pride against the supposed "left-wing elites".

Oh sure. But the far-right's working class is an interesting concept, in that it specifically excludes much of the actual working class. (That, and the people you always hear rant against the 'elite' do tend to be part of, well, the elite.)

Ares Land wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 3:04 pm
Oh sure. But the far-right's working class is an interesting concept, in that it specifically excludes much of the actual working class. (That, and the people you always hear rant against the 'elite' do tend to be part of, well, the elite.)

Of course. And, at least in the US, many right-wing politicians and commentators can be very good at jumping back and forth between attacking people as "elitist" and sneering at people for not being a part of the elite, depending on the personal biography of the specific opponents they have to handle at each moment.

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:30 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:15 pm

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 6:37 pm

authoritarian personalities gravitate toward whichever movement holds more power

I'm confused. Wouldn't that make corporations flee the left like rats from a sinking ship? And how would that affect liberals' feelings about the authoritarians?

Nortaneous erroneously associates liberals with "authoritarians", especially despite what we have seen in recent years.

which one of the following do you mean to imply:
- nothing movement progressivism has done in the last fifteen years is attributable to movement progressivism
- it's authoritarian for democratically elected politicians to challenge unelected institutions, no matter how much power those unelected institutions claim for themselves
- *waves hands* reagan

Raphael wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 1:09 pm Another thought on the poll that started the current subdiscussion, and Moose-tache's question about it: Perhaps between 2019 and 2021, some people with corporate-friendly views moved from seeing themselves as independents or Republicans to seeing themselves as Democrats, thus driving up pro-corporate views among Democrats?

i would suggest scrolling thru the timeline of the twitter account "woke capital" for some further ideas as to why democrats might be friendlier to corporations than republicans, but it seems that it's suspended. hm

Thanks for those replies, everyone. On a different note, the more I read about nuclear energy politics, the more it seems that anti-nuclear sentiment is becoming ensconced in the left, leaving only some conservative elements to support nuclear energy. Since the science is clearly on the side of nuclear energy, this means we are developing a situation in which it's the right that is following science, and the left that is denying science. This doesn't undo the continual climate change denial and fossil fuel subsidies of the right over the last several decades, but it's a strange development nonetheless.

Nortaneous wrote: ↑Mon Aug 23, 2021 7:15 pm

Travis B. wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 9:30 pm

Moose-tache wrote: ↑Sun Aug 22, 2021 7:15 pm I'm confused. Wouldn't that make corporations flee the left like rats from a sinking ship? And how would that affect liberals' feelings about the authoritarians?

Nortaneous erroneously associates liberals with "authoritarians", especially despite what we have seen in recent years.

which one of the following do you mean to imply:
- nothing movement progressivism has done in the last fifteen years is attributable to movement progressivism
- it's authoritarian for democratically elected politicians to challenge unelected institutions, no matter how much power those unelected institutions claim for themselves
- *waves hands* reagan

I was implying that you associate progressivism with "authoritarian personalities", i.e. that progressives gravitate towards whichever movement holds more power, as if the right weren't authoritarian despite everything we have seen about them (cough cough attempting a coup).